You Could Be Saving Big Bucks on Your Heating and Cooling with Dennis Stinson

February 13, 2024

122. You Could Be Saving Big Bucks on Your Heating and Cooling with Dennis Stinson

Industry expert Dennis Stinson shows us the world of energy-efficient home comfort systems. Learn ways to save money without having to spend a fortune. From demystifying heat load analysis to uncovering the benefits of zoning techniques and ductless heat pumps, there are ways to transform your living space into a cozy oasis while keeping your energy bills in check. Discover the financial perks of energy rebates, federal tax credits, and smart home integration that can make your upgrade more affordable than ever. 

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Website: ConstantComfort.com

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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/FujitsuGeneralUSA

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Transcript

George Siegal: 0:00

How energy efficient is your house? Are you taking advantage of all the different things out there that might save you some money each month? Now, if I was put on the spot to answer these questions, my first answer would be no, I'm not, because I have no idea what the options are to save money. Well, you'll learn a lot from my guest today, Dennis Stinson. He's the VP of sales for Fujitsu General America and he's an expert in heating and cooling systems and the things you can do with them that could save you some money without having to spend a lot of money. I'm George Siegal, and this is Homeowners Be Aware the podcast that teaches you everything you need to know about being a homeowner. Dennis, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dennis Stinson: 0:42

Oh, it's a real pleasure. Thank you for having me and thanks for talking about this subject of home comfort.

George Siegal: 0:48

Yeah, I mean, that's an important subject, because you know if you live in a home where you don't have it right or you're paying too much. So tell me exactly what is out there that we can start saving money with as homeowners, because I know so many things are inefficient. How do we get to a more efficient way of handling this?

Dennis Stinson: 1:07

Great question. Well, there's always two really important things when you talk about your home comfort system. The first is that it's got to work. And as simple as that sounds, a home comfort system is to make you comfortable. So no matter how much money you're spending or how much money you're saving, if it doesn't make you comfortable, it didn't do what you bought it to do.

Dennis Stinson: 1:26

So buying an appropriately sized and installed and service piece of equipment is by far the most important thing to do, so that you actually achieve comfort. The second is to make sure that it's affordable, because if you're comfortable and you can't afford it, then you're uncomfortable again, right? So it's a matter of trying to get a piece of equipment that's going to give you the maximum efficiency for your money's worth. And when we buy efficiency, like we buy cars with gas mileage, you tend to pay for that upfront. So what you do is you buy a high efficient piece of equipment and through your use, it's your operational cost is where the savings come back. So there's always a couple of questions you ask yourself on that. But making sure that the piece of equipment makes you comfortable and you can afford the install on the operational cost is is how you want to direct your efforts.

George Siegal: 2:18

Now a lot of us have no control over the system that might be there. So if you buy a house later in the production and you're taking what they give you, if you're buying a house from somebody else, you're getting what came with the house, and if you're in the very beginning stages, you can probably have more selection choices. So you have this. But when you're kind of just you know inheriting a circumstance, how do you, how do you, gain control of that end of it?

Dennis Stinson: 2:44

Well, at some point, everything has a life and everything mechanical will run to its useful lifespan. And then, at that point is when the choices come in. So you first take a step back and say, well, what type of home comfort system do you have, and do you have heating, do you have air conditioning or do you have both? So let's assume, that's assumed, that maybe you have both, but start thinking about the types of heating you can have.

Dennis Stinson: 3:08

And in a very simplistic world, there are two types of heat. There are those that make air hot and you blow that around your house, and there are those that are some form of radiator. So, whether that's a baseboard heat, a hydronic baseboard heat or a steam radiator or even radiant floor heating, there's something that makes something hot that makes your room hot, and then there's something that makes the air hot that moves around your room. So when we look at that standpoint, then you take a step back and say, well, what kind of fuel are we using? Are we using gas, we use an LP, or we use natural gas, or we using coal, or we using oil, or are we using electricity? And based on the type of fuels that are available to you and the type of structure that you have in your house. Then you start getting down into the options of where you can go.

George Siegal: 4:03

What I've learned, what I've seemed to have learned in almost the last several houses that I bought if you find a way to increase the airflow whether it's cool air or warm air in your house, you also have to have a way to get that out of there, like if the circulation is bad overall, if there's not enough return airs in your house or anything. So is that part of the equation is knowing how your whole system is balanced before you try to save money with it.

Dennis Stinson: 4:26

Yeah. So really the best thing to do is you call a contractor that you trust and you let them come in and do a heat load and heat gain in your house. And if we think back to that sixth grade science class, that physics class, remember that hot goes to cold. So in the winter time, the heat's going from inside your house and it's trying to find every way to get outside. In the summertime, all that hot sunshine is trying to find a way to get in.

Dennis Stinson: 4:50

So what you want to do is make sure that you got the right size piece of equipment. And then, if you're using a forced air system, you want to make sure that the distribution system or your ductwork, or in my case, the ductless work, is sufficiently sized and sealed. And yeah, return air grills are important because what you blow in you have to take out. And, by the way, I listened to your podcast on indoor air quality and that was really good. That was a good discussion about airflow in there and also quality of air, but good discussion of airflow and balancing of a house. That was a good podcast.

George Siegal: 5:25

Yeah, I mean it's having return airs. You know, I have a feeling sometimes the people that engineered the houses I live in maybe it was their first time out of the box- yeah, that could happen. Now. So tell me about ways I can save money with a system I might have, and is it significant savings? Or is it one of those things where they say, well, over the life of a house, you'll save X amount of dollars, or is it something you notice that you're saving right away?

Dennis Stinson: 5:51

Yeah. So if you think of that, your home comfort system is going to comprise more than half of your home energy cost. Now you're talking about something significant, right? So we can. We can change light bulbs, and that's good we should, but the real energy consumption is our heating and air conditioning system. So if we make an effective change to that, we are Changing our overall energy, home energy cost pretty dramatically.

Dennis Stinson: 6:18

Now we measure let's stay with the heat pump, let's stay with air conditioning. We measure that by a measure of efficiency, and air conditioning we call it sear seasonal energy efficiency rating. The higher the number, the more efficient the unit is. Think of it kind of like MPGs for a car, so the more the better. When you move up incrementally in it, it can make a pretty dramatic Impact to your bill. So if I've got something that's more than half of my overall energy costs and I increase the efficiency that by 10 or 20 or 30 percent, now I am directly noticing the difference in my utility bill on a monthly basis. You can save Depending upon the size of your home and the climate you live in. You can save hundreds of dollars a month.

George Siegal: 7:05

Yeah, I mean I. I used to live in In Detroit and there we would have had it, had nice savings in the in the winter because you're blasting your heat all the time. But now I live in Florida where your air conditioning is almost running all the time. So what are some things I can do to start saving some money?

Dennis Stinson: 7:23

Well. So it starts on a couple of different ways. So it starts with Getting a good piece of equipment, get a balance, get it installed correctly, right. The second thing you can do is if you zone the property, so what you want to be able to look at is a piece of equipment like a ductless heat pump that, coincidentally, I sell. And if you put one, if the way that that comes out of the box it's individually zoned, so you're putting an evaporator or an air dispersion system in each Zone, then what happens is only that comes on when you need it. So hear me out on this if I'm, if I'm watching the, the AFC championship, upstairs and I'm not downstairs, then I don't have to heat or cool the downstairs while I'm upstairs. If I have three kids and I do and Two of them are off to college, I don't have to temper their rooms to the same temperature as the rest of the house. So now I'm only conditioning for the most part the rooms that I'm living in.

George Siegal: 8:27

Then, if I'm only living in 20% of my overall space, imagine the savings that I would have over a traditional system where there's one thermostat in the hallway when when I turn it, it makes the whole house the same temperature, but I'm not living in the whole house, so zoning is a big, big feature that can save pretty dramatically on home energy costs so once you've done that and and and you like, for example, here in Florida we keep our air in the summer at 78 degrees and we have one is a split system that goes one, one splits zone, splits into two areas and the other is another section of the house, so I guess there's three zones, but we have some rooms that get much hotter. They don't have enough return air so I had to put a split system in my office because it was four degrees warmer than the rest of the house. So when you do that, when you, when you just work on certain areas, is one room going to be all hot and clammy versus, or do you just keep it a few degrees warmer?

Dennis Stinson: 9:29

Well. So what I would do is if, if it were me, I would find that baseline temperature that you want the house to be at and then the rooms that you're living in you would have them tempered to to what you like. So, living in Florida, maybe you keep everything at 78 and the rooms that you're Sleeping in or watching TV or reading a book at nighttime, then maybe that's the 75 or 72 or whatever temperature it is that you are comfortable with with heat, with heat and really with cool. There's. There's two elements you have to think of. One is latent heat and one is sensible heat. Sensible heat is the temperature of the air. So when I turn on an air conditioning, I feel that nice cool air on me. That's the sensible heat that's blowing on me.

Dennis Stinson: 10:13

The latent heat is all the stuff in the room, the temperature that is.

Dennis Stinson: 10:17

The great example is is when you climb in your car in Florida In the middle of the day, those seats are like sitting on hot coals, right, that's the latent heat of the seats. Now, if you were to Turn off all the air conditioning in your home, all your furniture, your rugs, everything would heat up to a much higher temperature. So when you turn on the heat or turn on the air conditioning, it takes a while for everything to come down the temperature. So you want to find that nice sweet spot when you step out of a room and you set the temperature back. You don't want to set it back too much because then you got to get everything in that room back down to a comfortable temperature. So normally somewhere between Four to six, maybe as high as eight degrees is as far as you would want to set it, because that latent heat is gonna sit there and that the couch is gonna get hot and the chairs are gonna get hot and it's gonna be uncomfortable for a long time now.

George Siegal: 11:08

So, if I have, I get you an example of a typical house, let's say a three thousand square foot house, maybe twenty five hundred to three thousand, and it has one AC unit. Maybe it's a large unit but it operates the whole house. Could, how specifically now could? Could? Could you come in and break those up into zones, or does it have to be per air conditioning unit?

Dennis Stinson: 11:30

So you can do a couple of different things. So let's assume in that installation that it is duck work, right? So let's say, if it's in the northeast that heating air condition is going to be in the basement. If it's in Florida, that's probably going to be an eatic, right. If that's the case, then there's the possibility that somebody could go in with his own system.

Dennis Stinson: 11:48

A licensed contractor could go in and break those zones up, making sure that they got minimal air flow. There's science to it and we certainly appreciate the science. But they could divide those zones up to take care of the bedroom, maybe all the other bedrooms in the family room or what have you. They could find reasonable ways of doing that. On the other hand, if you use duckless heat pumps, like we do, then that is traditionally how they're broken out. So each room would have its own thermostat and dial in the temperature that you want. So if you like to sleep at 78 and the kids like to sleep at 72, nobody's got a blanket on and fighting temperatures or sweating, you said it's 72, they said it's 78, you got the temperature you need.

George Siegal: 12:31

Now would that be a separate unit for each room, so each one would be its own contained space within the house, each room it used to be but not anymore.

Dennis Stinson: 12:42

So now you can stick up to five units on a single condenser and, frankly, there's a technology called VRF, variable refrigerant flow, where you can stick even more. So in theory you could stick a unit in each room. And when I say unit, everybody thinks of the wall mount product, which is by far the most popular, but you can also do it ducted. So if you have a consumer that prefers grills and registers and diffusers maybe they have an architecture that doesn't lend itself well to something on a wall, they prefer not to see it then you can do grills and registers and diffusers. What most people do is they zone the master bedroom because that's who's paying the mortgage and that's who should be comfortable, right, of course.

Dennis Stinson: 13:24

And then you take all the kids in the hall bath and you put that on one zone Right and then you take the family room and put that on a zone and then if you got a, you know, a partially open lanai or some other part of the house and you put it on that. So normally you can do. You can normally do a home in four or five zones. Is how you do it. Bedrooms are normally two. Other part of the house is normally another two, maybe three.

George Siegal: 13:47

And then does it bend to the outside so it can drain the moisture. How does that get out of your house?

Dennis Stinson: 13:53

Yeah. So how our systems work is you have the outside unit that's called a condenser, and it pipes to the inside unit through a three and a half inch hole in the wall. There's two pipes, a liquid suction line but think a big pipe, a little pipe and it runs to the indoor unit. The indoor unit is called an evaporator, and all air conditioning systems if they work, because they drop below the dew point, they will condense and there will be moisture or condensate that you got to get rid of. If you mount the unit on the wall, then it drains out the back of the unit, runs out the flower beds and all the flowers are happy. If it's not on an outside wall, then you would normally put some type of pump on it and the pump would pump it up to somewhere where it could flow to the outside. So there's a you have to accommodate the condensate because you will have condensate, but it's it's. It's pretty common technology for people to be able to do it.

George Siegal: 14:43

And without throwing out a blanket bid for anything. So is there a ballpark of what it costs to come into a house and do something like that?

Dennis Stinson: 14:50

Oh, that's always the great question, and this is where I make friends with all the contractors that are listening to you. The real answer is it depends, right, it depends. So, if it's a, if it's an easy installation, single zone equipment, no electrical upgrade, hole in the wall unit on the outside, 15 feet of piping going in, you're probably looking, I don't know, dependent upon the efficiency of the unit, and call it $3,000, right? If you are more complicated, where it's a two story rise and there is needs to be an electrical upgrade and there's not a pad and then disconnects and there's all into it, then it can go up from there. The more units you stick on a condensing unit, it's incrementally less because you already have a single unit outside.

Dennis Stinson: 15:36

So really, the best thing to do is to call a contractor that you trust. And the best time to call a contractor you trust is when you don't need one. So when you go to a, when you go to a party as boring as that may sound while you're playing cornhole with your buddies, ask them who does your air conditioning work at your house? Who does your plumbing at your house? Who does your electrical work in your house? That's the best time to find somebody that everybody trusts, instead of when you're sweating in the living room and you got to get it fixed now. So references, referrals, are always the best way to find somebody.

George Siegal: 16:10

Oh, absolutely. You know we sometimes look at things on Nextdoor but you don't know who the people are that hired those people and what the scope of the job was. If they're friends of yours, it's easier to get the information People shouldn't be shy of asking that question.

Dennis Stinson: 16:25

Absolutely, absolutely. That's the again. You know I'm a firm believer that every homeowner should have a couple of friends in the trade. They should know people to call before they need it. You should know a plumber, you should know an electrician, you should know an HVAC guy and you should know a guy that can fix the roof and the siding on your house when a storm blows through. So you should be able to call somebody. Maybe not know them if you bump into them at the supermarket, but know somebody that you call that you can trust when that happens, because when that happens, the name on the back of the phone book or the first social media ad to pop up may not be the person.

George Siegal: 17:02

The best choice, that's that might be the best advice you give this entire, this entire episode, because I think people you just read stories all the time about people getting screwed by somebody who takes their money, doesn't do the job or they do a crummy job and I think it ruins it for all the good people out there. But you know, sometimes there's a reason people are available.

Dennis Stinson: 17:22

Right, right. Yeah, there's some. There's a really good Professional trade people out there and the way you're gonna find them is by looking for them.

George Siegal: 17:30

If they come looking for you, you get what you get yeah, now are there rebates and incentives out there, tax credits how? How can people Absorb some of that?

Dennis Stinson: 17:40

Yes, yes, there's all kinds of money available out there. So, again, it's all based off of energy efficiency. So there's, there's a couple of things that are playing out in the world now. Most of the equipment is going to evolve around energy star, so it's got to be, it's got to be above average performance, which is good. That's the way it should be. But you've got a couple of things playing out there. One is federal tax credit called 25 C, and what this allows you to do is to make an improvement to your home and Get a tax credit that you would take off of your income taxes federal income taxes that you file at the end of the year. It's form 5695 and effectively you can take 30% up to $2,000 if you go to a heat pump. So if I, if I have a gas, if I have a gas furnace and I upgrade to a heat pump, it's going to be heating and air conditioning is going to be considerably more efficient and I can get $2,000 off my taxes. I like that 25 C a lot because we've had it for a long time. It just keeps getting renewed, renewed, renewed. It's been through every administration, so it's been through the wash. But the reason I like it is because everybody knows how to do it. Every contractor knows how to look, what qualifies and what doesn't qualify. It's very easy. That's what distributors stocks stuff that qualifies for that. So it just makes it real easy. The implementation is real easy and it's easy money. It's too grand. It comes right after your taxes. Easy to do.

Dennis Stinson: 19:10

The second layer that's out. There is the IRA or the inflation reduction act, and this was passed by President Biden. That it's been kicked around for a little bit. It's a little bit different. It's much richer, but it's a little bit different. And it's different from the standpoint of it puts the authority in the states. So each of the states that are choosing to participate, each of the states, are writing the requirements To apply for that fund. So the states got money from the federal government. Now they're creating the rules on how to get it back. We haven't seen a lot of that out there yet. We expect to see it the first quarter of 24.

Dennis Stinson: 19:48

But effectively, how it works is it's based off of income. So if you are, they take the average income in your area. If you are in the under half of that, so 50% below, they'll pay for up to 100% of the install cost up to $8,000 for a heat pump, and then they will pay additional money for an electrical upgrade and additional money for a wiring upgrade. So you can get up to $14,000. The mindset is is those that are most challenged by their electrical bill would get a greater or dish portion at level of relief. If you're between 50 and 150, then you get 50% of it, so you get half of what the other. So if you got the biggest house on the block, you probably get half of what it is, but you still get nice relief on what it is. If you're over a hundred and fifty percent of Everybody in your neighborhood, you're not going to qualify. So it's an income-based formula.

Dennis Stinson: 20:41

States are still hashing that out. I think it's a good program. I think it's got a lot of layers to it. I think there's. I Think you got to kind of walk through it, see what, see what applies and what works. So it's not. It's not the simplest, but it's there. It is by far the richest To be able to do it and we'll see more of that as we enter 2024. Individual states will be rolling out what their requirements are. I would tell you and I would encourage your listeners to go to our website. If we get to general comm, there's a rebate finder on there Once you enter. That it's a little creepy but it's kind of cool. It figures out exactly where you are and it picks up the rebates of where you're sitting and it tells you what equipment Qualifies and how you apply for it. So if there's a Florida power and lighter I apologize for not knowing the utility it'll tell you exactly what those rebates are, how to qualify for 25c.

George Siegal: 21:35

It'll walk you right through it but a lot of those rebates are not income dependent, are they? I mean that just might be a manufacturer's rebate 25c is not 25.

Dennis Stinson: 21:43

See, there's two grand out there. It's, it's, it's not income dependent.

George Siegal: 21:47

Okay, now the smart home Systems. I've had people try to sell me those and maybe I wasn't smart enough to understand it. But that's a thermostat that now ties into your phone. Is there a way that you just program everything so it works automatically?

Dennis Stinson: 22:02

It could, it could, I mean so all of all the equipment that we sell is Can do it all. So you know, if you want to, it comes with a thermostat. If you want to set it and forget it, it's good. If you want to set it and have it turn up or down at nighttime to do a setback, that's fine. If you want to be gee whiz and have it on your phone so that you can change the temperature in your home from anywhere in the world, you can do that. If you want to tie it into your Alexa and sit on the couch and bark at it and have it turn up and down, it can do that too. There's even a really cool lap that's called if this, then that.

Dennis Stinson: 22:40

So it ties. It's an open protocol that and we're part of it. It ties everything together. So if it, if it hits 40 degrees in central Florida, it'll turn on your heat pump and your your Sonical start playing. It's a white Christmas or something. So I mean you can tie all these different apps together. So it's really kind of cool for me. I'm more old school I go over and I turn it up or down, but but again, it's, it's a matter of what you want to do well, when you have that kind of control, do you really save that much money?

George Siegal: 23:14

because I Was told by an AC guy to leave ours at 78 all the time, because when you take it to 82 and then you bring it down and you go back and forth, that it, it, it throws off the balance of the house. So how are people doing this and having it not affect them in the the efficiency of their system?

Dennis Stinson: 23:32

So that goes back to that conversation of sensible and latent heat. Right, and your AC guy is spot on. You should keep him. He knows what he's talking about. If you, if you, adjust the temperature too much, then the catch up time and the energy it takes to catch it up exceeds what possible energy you saved. What most people do is that at nighttime they change the temperature because you're asleep.

Dennis Stinson: 23:55

So in the, in the winter time, you can let the house get a little bit cooler. Chances are you're in bed, you got a comforter on, you got some jammies on, you're good. The house rises a couple of degrees in temperature. It's not going to mean a lot to you, dorn, before you wake up, if you have this setback, kick the heat on. So by the time it's time to get up, brush your teeth and get a shower, the house comes up to temperature. You can save a couple of bucks overnight not keeping the whole house 68 degrees. Then you're fine. Same thing would be true during the day.

Dennis Stinson: 24:26

If you are, if you are one of the people that still leaves your home to go to work, then you can set the temperature of your house maybe to rise a few degrees, so that, uh, and then just come back when you get home. The coolness of some of the apps are is that you can also geofence with it too, so it'll know if you're within two miles of the home, heading in that direction. I'll turn the ac on when you get there. But again, I a good night setback, a good old school setback. I leave work at five, I get home at five thirty. I'll adjust it, so it's there Whatever works for you.

George Siegal: 24:58

So give me some simple energy saving tips. One of them might have been just what you just gave me, but what are some ways I can uh can start saving right away?

Dennis Stinson: 25:05

All right. So the more complex, but things to think about. Certainly you buy the efficiency that makes sense for your home. The longer you're going to stay in a home, the more efficient a piece of equipment you should buy, because it's the operational cost. Second is, is that make sure it's properly sized so that all goes back to that contractor that you know and trust to be able to do that. The next is is how you control it.

Dennis Stinson: 25:27

So are you doing setbacks or not? Are you doing zoning or not? Zoning is really, really good. You should try to make that work if you can, um setting back where it makes sense, like we just talked about.

Dennis Stinson: 25:38

But what if I have a system in my home? What if I bought a home and it's there and I kind of got what I need and I spent all the money on carpet and I'm not ready to Do the ac yet? Well then, what you need to do is maintain what you have. So you want to find a good contractor that's going to come out and service your equipment, and what I mean by service it is come out and take the paddle off and clean your coil off and make sure there's no dirt and degree and Whatever on top of there and keep it good and clean, because it's a, it's a radiator, right?

Dennis Stinson: 26:09

So I mean we're running refrigerant through it and it's it's emitting cold temperature and if you got, if you got stuff on it, then it's insulating it and it's not able to transfer heat really well. So if you keep it good and clean, they're cleaning the outside unit to clean in the inside unit they're servicing the traps. So the condensates going away. Get a good service contract from somebody's not going to cost a lot of bucks, but I guarantee you the preservation of efficiency will pay for that couple hundred bucks that they charge you to do it. So maintain what you got.

George Siegal: 26:39

Now I've heard stories when people are coupon clippers of the amount of money they saved. You have any great stories from energy savers the amount of money that they've saved, yeah, so we.

Dennis Stinson: 26:51

We see a lot of it. So the equipment that the equipment that I sell is incredibly efficient. So ductless heat pumps are incredibly efficient. So, for instance, minimum sear rating in the northern half United States is 13 sear. In the southern half United States is 14 sear. I got a piece of equipment that's 33 sear and we sell it all day long. So it's more than two times as efficient what's out there. So somebody will take out a fossil fuel or maybe some Some baseboard and they'll stick our piece of equipment in and they can save up to 40 or 50 and they're comfortable. So they're zoning, they've changed their efficiency dramatically from where they were and they're comfortable to boot. They're comfortable. So again, it goes back to that very first conversation. It doesn't matter how much money you save if you're not comfortable. Eat and save anything.

George Siegal: 27:45

That's true. Anything you want to plug before we go, anything that I didn't ask you now I hit my website.

Dennis Stinson: 27:51

I hit that we're incredibly efficient. They hit that we're nice people just trying to make a living too. So, um, you know, find a good contractor. That's that's really what you want to do. Have a conversation with them about the type of heating system you have and what are the possibilities. Then, when they give you that dream list of what you could do, before you flinch on the price, take a look at what the rebates are on it, because Today in united states you can buy more efficient piece of equipment cheaper. Then you can buy entry tier product because of the incentives on the backside. We're in a whole national energy policy. There's funds available. It's your money, your taxpayer. It's your money, so you might as well enjoy that. To be able to Put the right piece of equipment in your house, make yourself and your family comfortable. Put a couple of bucks in your pocket.

George Siegal: 28:45

Yeah, if they're gonna give all that money away, we might as well take it right. Get the line All right, hey, uh, dennis, I'll put all your contact information in the show notes. Um, thanks for coming on today. Appreciate your time.

Dennis Stinson: 28:57

Hey, thanks for having me and thanks for what you're doing Good stuff.

George Siegal: 29:00

I want to hear your stories about being a homeowner good stories and the bad ones, so the rest of us can learn from your good or bad fortune. Just fill out the contact form in the show notes and you might end up being featured on an upcoming podcast. Thanks again for listening today. See you next time.