Reducing My Flood Risk with Jack Krolikowski

January 16, 2024

118. Reducing My Flood Risk with Jack Krolikowski

Explore the complexities of homeownership in the face of increasing flood risks in our latest podcast featuring Jack Krolikowski from the American Flood Coalition. In this episode, we delve into the financial challenges and highlight the importance of proactive data and clear communication during home sales. From the impact of home elevation strategies on communities to the idea of a comprehensive home history report, we offer crucial insights. This episode is rich with practical tips for homeowners and personal anecdotes, serving as a vital survival guide in an era where flood risks are on the rise. Whether you're an experienced homeowner or a first-time buyer, join us for valuable tools to navigate the potential challenges of flooding.

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Transcript

George Siegal: 0:00

Thank you for joining me on this week's Homeowners Be Aware podcast. We've talked a lot about flooding on this podcast because it's such a devastating thing when it happens to a homeowner and it happens to be the costliest and most common natural hazard in this country. But what every homeowner should know and understand is there are things you can do to avoid becoming a victim of flooding. My guest today is Jack Krolikowski. He's a flood planning director for the American Flood Coalition, a nonprofit that is focused on advancing solutions to flooding and sea level rise. I'm George Siegal, and this is Homeowners Be Aware, the podcast that teaches you everything you need to know about being a homeowner. Jack, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks, george, appreciate the chance to share on this Now. The way I found you, I read something interesting that you wrote, and then I'm curious to learn about the American Flood Coalition. Tell me about the work you guys do.

Jack Krolikowski: 0:57

Absolutely. Thanks for the chance to share a little bit. We are a nonprofit and nonpartisan coalition advancing solutions to flooding and sea level rise At this point, more than 400 members in 20 plus states, and what's probably important for listeners to hear is that a lot of those members are towns and cities, just like where they live. When we think about flooding sometimes we think about the mega cities. These are places like Canton, north Carolina, up in the mountains as well. So not just coastal cities, but really the places that are impacted by flooding, and then those communities join, or sometimes those local elected officials join, to really demonstrate as leaders that solutions to flooding and or sea level rise or something that they're really interested in pursuing. We work at all levels of government federal policy, state policy and really on the ground as well with local communities.

George Siegal: 1:57

Well, give me an example of something that you would step in and do, because we're making a movie right now called Built to Last Buyer Beware and one of the things we're finding is that a lot of people flood who had no idea they could flood or they never thought it would happen to them. So, when your organization comes in, tell me how you guys step in and make a difference.

Jack Krolikowski: 2:14

Yeah, that's a great example.

Jack Krolikowski: 2:16

I think one of the pieces that we really pride ourselves on, if you will, is about data management, and risk assessment might be the way that we kind of frame up that piece you're talking about, about making sure that data is available to decision makers, whether that decision maker is a chief resilience officer of the state or someone making that transaction for their home for the first time, like I did becoming a new homeowner roughly this time last year and one of the particular pieces that we're really passionate about as it pertains to flooding data but I think it can be relevant for other hazards as well, of course is that forward looking component right to make sure that that investment someone's making, whether it's an infrastructure in a home, that that data is really looking out over that lifespan of the investment?

Jack Krolikowski: 3:09

Right? So we can think about things like precipitation, rainfall data, looking forward in time and not just being that snapshot of where we are now or, as is unfortunately too often the case, even backwards looking. And I think that's many times where you run into that issue where someone says, man, I had no idea how at risk I really was. I think what they're often saying is maybe the information that was made available to them was not sort of robust enough to communicate that the risk in the real world sort of was what it was right. It was kind of our risk communication and risk identification that fell short on that person who unfortunately found himself in a tough position after.

George Siegal: 3:53

Yes, I mean, it's pretty crazy. Here in Florida there's actually a form you can use that you can give a buyer a disclosure form, but you don't have to present it to the person buying the house. And we met this one woman who lives in a neighborhood called Shore Acres, which is over in St Petersburg, florida, across the bay from where I live, and her house has flooded twice since she bought it and she found out that it had flooded previously but nobody told her about it, and that seems to be a real problem. It's one thing to have data, but then sharing the data really seems to be the most important part about that.

Jack Krolikowski: 4:25

Absolutely. Disclosure in many states is an emerging topic, right, that's one that typically hasn't been touched federally, and so it comes down to the nuances in the given state and sort of as a sort of the data side of what I was getting at. I totally agree with you. There's the sort of the mechanism of how is it being shared and then the quality of what's being shared.

Jack Krolikowski: 4:48

If I think about, one of the very common elements found in disclosure, of course, is something to the effect of what flood zone are you in in a FEMA flood insurance rate map, those flood maps as created by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and that's another one where you sort of see that feedback loop of that disclosure is only as good as the data being disclosed, right, which is kind of obvious when you think about it.

Jack Krolikowski: 5:15

But if you peel back that layer and then you say, hey, what is the data going into the creation of that flood insurance rate map that then is disclosed in that transaction, you can see sort of this chain. And so in that particular issue we think we're uniquely positioned to kind of add value on helping folks think through some of that data creation, on the flood hazard modeling, to make sure that if a state does go the direction of a disclosure, for example, that they're having a really robust tool to actually kind of meet the full purpose of it and not just have it in name only, yeah, we've heard a lot of people complaining about how the FEMA maps are outdated and that a lot of the data talks about the last 100 years, but it doesn't really account for climate change and sea level rise and all the things that are going to steamroll us and make our decisions even worse, because looking back doesn't necessarily help us in looking forward.

Jack Krolikowski: 6:15

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's one where we can see that on the homeowner side, right, the way we've been talking about sort of that lands on the disclosure, and I think you can sort of look at that same argument or same line of thinking on community infrastructure right, because, again, if we're making an investment in a property, we're also sort of buying into, literally and figuratively, the community around us.

Jack Krolikowski: 6:39

We want to be able to get to our jobs and school and those activities that make a place worth living, and so when we think about data that goes into the design and construction and operation of infrastructure, that same issue arises. One of the things that we're really interested in is, as I mentioned, early precipitation data. That tends to come out of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration no, as people typically hear the acronym laid out but they have an initiative where they're working on that forward looking component of the rainfall data, and so we think that's something that's really really important, again, kind of as an umbrella approach to make sure that we're making thoughtful investments in that public infrastructure as well.

George Siegal: 7:24

Well, here's where I feel kind of hopeless on the whole thing. Let's say you find out that, OK, sea level rise X, Y and Z are going to happen, and then you take a community that's on the coast, right on the water, and you're basically telling them they're screwed, You're going to be underwater in 50 years. You're going to flood a lot more now during high tide. You're basically telling a bunch of people that their property problem is going to be worthless. How do you fix that other than the government now digging into their pockets and buying them out and getting them to move, which I don't know? That that's the government's responsibility. How do you work with that once you have this information?

Jack Krolikowski: 8:03

Yeah, it's tough, right, I think there's probably the me as an individual answer, right, if we're having a beer or coffee. But then when I think about the way of as an organization like ours can support our members and I think it is by making that data available right, I think we're at this point where the action needs to be taken. Right, we as an organization probably aren't in the best position to tell the federal government, a state government and certainly a local government the best decisions for kind of their futures, right, but what I think we are in the business of is informed decision making, right, so that when, as I put it earlier, that data and data management, sort of hazard identification communication, when you pair that with strategic planning for a local government, for a state government, when you talk about the funding and financing right, because that strategic plan is only as good as kind of the resources being able to execute those projects that you identify and the other parts of the design standards going into those projects.

Jack Krolikowski: 9:12

So that's where I would say our organization would take that and say, look, we want to provide these resources so that you're making informed decisions, as opposed to being in a position of calling balls and strikes on what the right, exact approach might be. And so it's tough, right, george? I mean, I think that's just the reality of it, but in that context, it's very local right and the decision making is local.

Jack Krolikowski: 9:43

I think we've one of the things that I like to say is sort of all resilience is local. We hear these statements from FEMA in the past that all disasters are local, and then we hear on the political side that all politics is local, and so with those two sort of fundamental truths, then you kind of say this adaptation, resilience is inherently local as well, even if many of the sort of funding sources are federal or state in nature, as well as the policies that might be enacted.

George Siegal: 10:09

What's the answer if we were having a beer? Different answer.

Jack Krolikowski: 10:12

Probably not different. I mean, as you can tell, my passion for it is this sort of the data-driven side of the decision making, almost like a fiduciary type role in that. Look, Mayor Jones, it's your town. I'm never going to have spent as much town in Fludsville as you have if you've been here for 72 years and been mayor for 38. But this is what I can lay on the table in front of you. I think the coffee and beer answer that I might also offer is that I don't think we can overly mask the influence of pricing reflecting risk. I think that there is a fundamental truth that risk communication through dollars and cents is a more meaningful lever than many others. Of course, we then in the public policy world sort of then need to hedge that by saying, hey, not everybody who lives in the coast or alongside a riverine flooding source is a millionaire. So that affordability component of how do we balance the price signaling with affordability where merited is probably where I would really dig in on the coffee and beer side of things.

George Siegal: 11:38

Well, I'll come back to the community that I brought up, this Shore Acres, which, during Hurricane Adalia here in Florida this year, I think 800 people were displaced in houses, and there's only a couple of houses. There's a handful of houses in this neighborhood that are actually elevated. So if the solution was you have to elevate your houses, how would you tell a community of 800 houses? You all have to do this because I think a lot of people live there because it's affordable, but it's a great location, and having to all of a sudden spend $100,000 to elevate your house or do something dramatic might eliminate them from the market. So then you're just kind of recycling it for the next people that are going to try to get them on $0.50 on the dollar and then come in and do it themselves. So it's just, this solution seems hard to comprehend.

Jack Krolikowski: 12:26

It is hard right and full transparency. My prior role before this I was employed with a state and was running grant programs that funded a lot of those home elevation type efforts. So I can see opportunities there right. But I think again, from that informed decision and trying to get our arms around, there's this homeowner component and a community component, right when you're thinking about service delivery in those situations as well. That is, things like how are you going to get emergency services into an area that's exclusively elevated homes or, at some point, all elevated homes the fact that they're all elevated tells you something about the water on the ground and obviously, to get resources in and out, that's a consideration right that there's public infrastructure that is sort of underpinning the ability to do that.

Jack Krolikowski: 13:26

And so coming up with that comprehensive solution is a tricky one for sure, and I think home elevations are a clear example of that case right, where you sort of are making advantageous decisions, if you will, on sort of the homeowner by homeowner piece, but when you aggregate that you say, hey, is that gonna put us in a tough position, sort of as a local government, to guarantee that we're able to provide services.

George Siegal: 13:56

You know, and another example is is the house a couple blocks from us that three times has flooded in the last couple years and it's turned through a couple different owners and they finally tore it down and now they're gonna build a house that I imagine is elevated. But if you're a person buying that house and you know it's flooded three times, you know, no matter what they build, if it floods again you're gonna lose what's in your garage. If you have a pool, it's gonna get damaged. Your yard is gonna take on a lot of water. Why would somebody wanna buy that?

Jack Krolikowski: 14:25

Yeah, I mean I'll come back maybe to something I said earlier or referenced earlier about becoming a homeowner myself here in the last year or so. Total cost of ownership is a real thing, right, that we tend to have this idea that we're gonna buy a maybe buy a home and take out a mortgage and say, okay, between inflation and maybe get some raises over time, maybe I'm gonna feel that mortgage payment a little bit less over time as my tenure in the home continues. Well, unfortunately, right, I think insurance taxes to support local capital improvements those are a fixed cost. Right, those are rising and we think, probably in lockstep with these kind of flooding issues or other kind of weather perils that are sort of a similar lens we could be thinking about.

Jack Krolikowski: 15:20

That's kind of the way this whole climate piece that can feel kind of abstract or above our heads, that becomes a kitchen table issue at that point, right, I got the love note, if you will, from my bank saying, hey, mr Krolikowski, we're gonna be looking for a little bit more in the escrow because the insurance changed as opposed to what we expected. Right, and perhaps not surprisingly. I was a pretty informed buyer, location-wise, in terms of natural hazards, when I bought this home but there's other ramifications that they can lead to that insurance piece and so that total cost of ownership piece is a huge component of that informed decision and sort of to me not going to sleep on sort of day zero when we're closing in that forward-looking component to say, hey, how's this cost of ownership gonna change over time? And I think the weather component is a clear example of how that could be in fact rising over time.

George Siegal: 16:15

Yeah, we're also learning making this film. It's unbelievable how many people don't set aside money for maintenance on their house. They don't have any kind of emergency fund for that hurricane deductible or any kind of deductible that's on your insurance. They don't just hand you a check for the full amount, and so then a lot of people don't fix the house all the way because they didn't get enough money. So it all starts with making the wrong choice where to live, and then from there all bets are off.

Jack Krolikowski: 16:44

Yeah, certainly I think the insurance component right and you know in Florida, right, better than anyone that bets Certainly an emerging topic right In this field in terms of, again a kitchen table issue, right, something that I think historically and I mean this with full respect to friends and colleagues in insurance and reinsurance it's something that most of us didn't spend a ton of time thinking about, right, and but now it's become a real consideration. And so, whether it's on this risk communication side that we've touched on earlier, or as well as the homeowner or community investment to reduce risk, again in my day job, that's the sort of the side of that insurance cost piece that I sort of have the most opportunity to hopefully influence, of course is promoting those thoughtful investments in risk reduction right, because I think that's the core principle there on the insurance side is, if we're reducing the risk, hopefully we're gonna see some benefits on the premium side of things.

George Siegal: 17:52

Well, tell me if you think this is a great idea or not. I think every house should have a it's like a car facts report, a permanent record that's attached to the house, which includes the flood risk, the future thinking, flood risk and obviously anything that's happened in the past. But the overall history should stay with it. I mean, a car costs us a fraction of what a house costs. We know more about our cars than we know about our houses.

Jack Krolikowski: 18:18

Yeah, I mean, I think again from a risk communication, informed decision. I'm buying what you're selling right, and I think the other interesting opportunity that may unlock George right is when you are dealing in this kind of adaptation, resilience, world right. One of the impediments is always success, is the lack of something happening right? That capital improvement program, for example?

Jack Krolikowski: 18:42

you make a culvert bigger so the road does not over top. People don't notice the road not over topping. They noticed it when it used to over top, right, it's this counterfactual that somebody might put to it. So it's kind of just this weird way to demonstrate success is a little bit tougher in some of this adaptation or resilience building. But what I think would be an interesting component to me about kind of that house facts model might be hey, we had losses in year X, in year Y, in year Z, in year 2026, the community came in and did this intervention in a material way, right, a measurable, significant way, reduced risk, right. I think that is a way that maybe you give a hook to that community investment as well in risk reduction, right. And of course we don't want anybody resilience washing right when they're saying, hey, we planted a bunch of trees and so we're never gonna have flooding again, right, where sort of the initiative is not material and reducing the risk.

Jack Krolikowski: 19:56

But I see that as an opportunity in the house facts model because it almost gives you a chance for that, the ribbon cutting in this risk reduction measure in a way that's kind of hard to deliver sometimes.

George Siegal: 20:09

You know, I think people have really short memories. When we interviewed people in Fort Myers Beach that had their houses wiped out, they talked about how they'd lived there for 20 years and nothing had ever happened. They thought so you end up getting emboldened with this? It's not gonna happen to me. And the reality is, and this is where I think the value of what you guys do is getting the information out there. So you understand, okay, it may not have happened, but I have to be prepared for this happening because if it does, we're gonna lose everything.

Jack Krolikowski: 20:38

Yeah, and I think you know from the, maybe the, the media, you know coverage of these things too. I think one thing that's that's really Important is to recognize that what say you're dealing with the state and the state legislature, state agencies, etc. Is to really remind folks that this can be an inland issue as well. Right, it's easy to to sort of envision Some of the sea level rise components that we've talked about here, but we've seen, you know, hugely significant flooding in small towns in Tennessee and in Kentucky.

Jack Krolikowski: 21:13

Right Is and and unfortunately, in those cases you're talking about Life and death as well, just given those Situations, both just sort of the physics of water in that flash flooding component and of course, the underlying social vulnerabilities in those areas. But I think it's really important that that data Also helps build up this story to recognize that. You know, for my background North Georgia has flooding issues to not just the coastal Part of the state. Same thing we do a lot of work at the coalition in North Carolina, as I mentioned, camp North Carolina. One of the communities we work with, boom North Carolina, recently joined as a member that inland portion. It's very, very real To community leaders and homeowners as well.

George Siegal: 22:03

Yeah, that's a great point. People think of just the sea level rise and coastal flooding. There's a woman we met here in South Tampa who has a house Next to a big apartment complex that was just built, so there used to be a huge open field there where the water would get absorbed. Now when it runs off, it runs off into her house, and she had this. The city doesn't care less, could care less attitude, so you never know where that flooding is going to come from, do you?

Jack Krolikowski: 22:29

Yeah, I think that's maybe the soft underbelly, right when, when I talked earlier about the data management and kind of hazard Identification component, it's one thing to let's say, let's map that out once.

Jack Krolikowski: 22:42

Well, then how do you keep that content up to date, sort of evergreen, as somebody might talk about it when there is ongoing Development to say, hey, that's changed sort of the fundamental Runoff conditions for what it means when water moves in that community. So I think there's two sides of it. Of course there's there's kind of that thoughtful land use component about is sort of prudent Zoning, which which is very much locally Driven, and then, as that development occurs, to make sure that we've sort of got that feedback so that our, our modeling, our data for those that next informed decision is up to today as well. I think you mentioned that earlier on. You know flood insurance rate maps falling out of date. The same thing can happen really on any of our data, whether that's, you know, even everything is as simple as the data going into design standards, right, we want to make sure that those are the most up-to-date information available.

George Siegal: 23:41

Yeah, do you think people get out a map and they go okay, look, there's a dam two miles away from me. I mean, look at all the people in in Houston and Hurricane Harvey that Survived the rain from the storm but got flooded when they opened the dam and released the water. It's like you really have to understand your entire area and where that risk can come from.

Jack Krolikowski: 24:00

Yeah, that's one of the pieces when I talked to a little bit mentioned strategic planning earlier. That kind of upstream, downstream component of flooding is really, really important. It's one that Maybe sets it apart from some of the other natural hazards in the sense that it it can really matter what is what is going on, particularly upstream of you. That downstream of you is more of that. How are you being a good neighbor to them?

Jack Krolikowski: 24:25

Right, I think there's, you know you can buy a t-shirt that say you know, everyone lives downstream and a lot of that has to sort of do with the the water quality side of things. Right, that that you know Was rolling off of your driveway may, you know, be drinking water supply for for somebody else. But when you think about the flooding side of things, to make sure that we're really thinking about those shared Watersheds or shared drainage areas, right, that that flood doesn't really care that the county line is here. It doesn't say I'm gonna stop there because, heaven forbid, I fled Jackson County as opposed to Washington County, right, and so making sure that those multiple jurisdictions are getting Together is really gonna come up with a more robust solution. Right, it's gonna be more of that Sort of data thoughtfulness. That we've talked about a lot, and we also think it opens up some levers on the funding and financing.

Jack Krolikowski: 25:16

To say, hey, if the real Beneficiary, or the folks downstream, how might we able to think about some solutions in which they're investing upstream, to sort of reap those benefits downstream, even if it's beyond sort of the political limits that might otherwise limit them For many of the decisions they make now.

George Siegal: 25:34

I'm a big believer in local communities being able to control a lot of things and make their own decisions, but what I don't understand why it's not national is Disclosure. Why would that be a bad thing? I have a hard time understanding the argument for saying you shouldn't have to disclose history, and why that isn't just something that automatically exists in all 50 states.

Jack Krolikowski: 25:57

Yeah, you know, disclosure is one that is tough, right. I Agree that any mechanism by which the data is being made available is gonna be helpful. Right To your point on some decisions or local, some are states, some are federal. Maybe it's above my pay grade to figure out why the, you know, the, the 50 state lever has not or cannot be pulled right. If there's anything that I have a healthy respect for as a former state Official is is me being confident that I knew my neck of the woods better than a National person thinking on my behalf did. Right, but I'm sort of crowdsourcing some of that Thinking around what needs to be made available.

Jack Krolikowski: 26:51

I certainly agree with George, and that's one of the reasons why, when we think about the data Creation right, what I mentioned earlier, the, the precipitation data from NOAA, for example Well, clearly that's data that's gonna be made available nationwide, right, there's certainly been states that have said, hey, we need forward-looking precipitation data sooner. Right, like this is a primary Objective priority for us, and so they've moved on it, right. But then you run the risk of running out 50 different datasets and then maybe you do have one of those hard boundaries where, you know, north Dakota's methodology differs slightly from South Dakota and so you have that heartbreak at the state line which you know. Again, the clouds do not work the case. And so thinking about where that sort of economy of scale to make sure that we're consistent, standardized nationwide, it makes a lot of sense to me and we also crack that down to states to make sure that we have statewide coverage of relevant data and statewide standards to ensure that we're sort of able to operate across those municipal countdowns.

George Siegal: 28:00

Well, I'd love to sit down and have a conversation with the person who said I shouldn't have to disclose the history of my house. I mean, that's the one argument that I agree with everything that you're saying. And there are so many different decisions that can be made locally. But the fact about telling people information about the history of something should be automatic, no brainer. It should happen and I think we should demand it. But in lieu of that, because it's hard to get government to do anything, people should ask if you're buying a house, you should ask a million questions, you should have a list and get all the information you need to make an informed decision. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Jack Krolikowski: 28:35

Yeah, absolutely. I think on the demand side, let's. Maybe supply is something that me and you aren't in a position to figure out, but on the demand side that is, I think, why you exist and do what you do. So if there's anything I hope people jot down from this conversation, it's demanded and as much as it would be a bummer, maybe, to go be looking for houses on a rainy day, I sure encourage people to do that.

Jack Krolikowski: 29:01

right, it's likely not going to be a day with that super impactful rainstorm that leads to the type of flooding that maybe keeps people up at night. But at least it'll give you an idea to be like oh, that seems to be a lot of water running down that portion of the subdivision. Maybe you can start playing that out in your mind to say, boy, if that was the rain from last July, this must have really been a tough place to be that day. I think that's just a healthy best practice that I would encourage folks to do too. Right, it's to check out that neighborhood on a rainy day, not just on a blue sky day.

George Siegal: 29:40

Yeah, don't fall in love with something without knowing it. Treat it like you're dating. Find out all the information you can, because what happens with victims it's just so upsetting to see. Flooding is very hard to come back from because of the amount of mess it leaves in your house, the amount of things that are ruined, and it's life altering.

Jack Krolikowski: 30:04

Yeah, I mean. Fema talks about an inch of water being $20,000, plus thousand dollars of damage depending on how that home is built.

Jack Krolikowski: 30:14

That's real money right, At least the people that I hang out with don't have that kind of cash sitting around, and so I think we have that homeowner scale. And then, if we think about the sheer number of federally declared disasters associated with flooding, it's a 50-state issue as well, and so you see it as a significant fiscal issue for local and state governments as well. The dollars and cents on flooding as a hazard are very real, and that's me sort of talking about it in the sort of cold-hearted, professional way, let alone that. What does it mean for Ms Jones and Mr Smith side of things? Right, and so I don't mean to dampen that side of things at all, just sort of reflecting from my day job, sort of thinking about these big kind of structural components of it.

George Siegal: 31:15

A couple other questions before I let you go. First off, what is that behind you? Is that a secret trap door to somewhere?

Jack Krolikowski: 31:22

Yeah, so this is a converted attic sitting in the second floor here, so I guess you call it kind of an attic crawl space of sorts. But thank you for noticing I'm going to ask you to open it up. I'm going to tell you other artworks, but actually this is always the one that catches people eye more than whatever I put behind me.

George Siegal: 31:42

Yeah, if you have kids, make sure you put a lock on that, because they'll find their way in there without a doubt. And then the other thing I thought was interesting is how you got into this whole thing. You sent me that in your bio about how you developed this passion for flooding and water and all the whole problem that it causes.

Jack Krolikowski: 31:58

Yeah, so I'm a.

George Siegal: 32:00

Western Pennsylvanian.

Jack Krolikowski: 32:01

Pittsburgher by birth and was there for the first 18 years of my life and had a creek there or, as we say up there, a creek in the backyard, and so that was always something that I could be sitting there in the yard and then it would rain and you could sort of see it sort of pop off and really just see like wow, that is just sort of an interesting way to see.

Jack Krolikowski: 32:28

And the really personal part that always struck me as a little kid was there was a church down in the city, say Mary of Mercy Church, and certainly higher than I was there on the brickwork, maybe still higher than I am even now.

Jack Krolikowski: 32:46

But there was the high watermark from the St Patrick's Day floods in 1936 in Pittsburgh and it was just amazing where, if you sort of took that line and put it across the horizon of what is now all these skyscrapers, to just look at the magnitude of water that that would have been again, forget the dollars and cents.

Jack Krolikowski: 33:08

Just the interruption to livelihoods and life from an event like that was something that I guess I shouldn't say. I look back fondly on that memory of that high watermark, but it was something that just sort of carries with me. I mean, I've spent a lot of time on this call talking about the dollars and cents and data and modeling and all those types things, but what really sort of fires me up on this work is recognizing that it influences people like your listeners and the local governments that support them and the state governments that support those local governments and the federal government that supports down. Just to say, hey, even if we're just making a slight tweak, the lever that that means on an issue this big is something that started off, as you said, when I was young, but one that I'm very thrilled to be able to do to pay my bills all this time later.

George Siegal: 34:05

That's great. And then if you had to leave people with one final piece of advice I'm going out to find a home for my family. What should my thought process be in regards to water and flooding?

Jack Krolikowski: 34:17

Yeah, so maybe I'll cheat and give two answers, right, because one we already gave go on a rainy day, right, and so I think that would be one.

Jack Krolikowski: 34:24

So sort of anchoring that real world experience and then pairing that with go, look up every sort of flood hazard information you can get your hands on, whether that's the flood insurance rate map, whether that's sort of some of the third party proprietary data making its way available often now and into real estate websites as well. So folks likely have that opportunity being extended to them and I encourage to even ask the local planning department. They may have additional information. Where I live, here in the northern part of the CAB County in Metro Atlanta, georgia, a lot of the local governments even have local modeling that they've done. That gives that hyper detailed level. And so just be informed between sort of that data side and the real world experience, because it is fun to become a new homeowner, right, but you've got to get it right Because, as we know, just the dollars and cents and just the stress that it can do makes flooding in particular something that you really, really want to avoid to the extent possible.

George Siegal: 35:36

Absolutely, and it's probably a good idea for people to think about doing this before you go. Actually look at that neighborhood, to look at houses, because once you start to really like a house and you love the neighborhood, it changes your perspective. You go I can put up with this, this is never going to happen, and those are the things that get you in trouble.

Jack Krolikowski: 35:52

Yeah, absolutely, I'll tell you, we were successful, my wife and I, ultimately in buying a home, but it was a long process, right? So I'm sort of a floodplain manager by profession and she's an architect by profession. So when you bring those two worldviews, if you will, into the home buying experience, it takes a long time for something to come over the hurdle to avoid that sort of falling in love component as well. So, yeah, great point there, jordan.

George Siegal: 36:22

Well, hopefully that led to a great choice and you live happily ever after and the house works out great, so it's good to hear it go that way. Hey, jack, thank you so much for coming on. Your contact information will be in the show notes and I really appreciate your time.

Jack Krolikowski: 36:36

Yes, sir, it was a pleasure, and thanks for the opportunity to hang out and talk shop.

George Siegal: 36:40

I'd love to hear your stories good or bad, of experiences you've had as a homeowner. There's a contact form in the show notes. Let me hear your story and you may end up being a guest on an upcoming episode. Thanks again for listening today. See you next time.