Surviving the Lahaina Wildfire Disaster Preparedness and Human Resilience

108. Surviving the Lahaina Wildfire Disaster Preparedness and Human Resilience

Imagine living in a paradise, only to see it engulfed in flames. That’s what happened to the residents of Lahaina, on the island of Maui. In this episode, we sit down with some long-time Maui residents to discuss the widespread disaster's impact, particularly the role of effective communication or the lack thereof. We discuss how an evacuation plan could've saved lives and emphasize the importance of personal advocacy and disaster planning. We don't just scratch the surface; we dig deep into the raw reality of the situation, exposing the harsh truth that can sometimes be more terrifying than the flames themselves.

Some highlights from this episode:

@ 1:15 Discussion about the fire's impact in Lahaina, Hawaii, and how it caught people by surprise.

@ 6:32 Challenges faced during the fire by the community, including the rapidly spreading flames, evacuations, and the tragic loss of lives.

@ 26:42 Post-fire recovery and rebuilding Lahaina after the disaster and the considerations about its future development and resilience.

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Transcript

George Siegal: 0:00

Thank you for joining me on this week's Homeowners Be Aware podcast. Back in August, there was a huge wildfire in Hawaii, on the island of Maui. Much of the community of Lahaina was destroyed. 96% of the structures burned were residential. If you're a homeowner anywhere, this fire should serve as a wake-up call for you. That disaster can strike anywhere. So what's your plan if it's heading your way and how are you positioned for recovery after it strikes? A guy I've known since high Howie Hevern lives in Maui and experienced the fire first hand. He joins me today with his friend who also lives on Maui, Ethan Shelton. We talk about what it was like during the fire, what life is like there today, and what that road to recovery really looks like. I'm George Siegal, and this is Homeowners Be Aware, the podcast that teaches you everything you need to know about being a homeowner. Howie and Ethan, thank you so much for joining me today.

Howie Hevern: 0:55

Pleasure, absolutely pleasure.

George Siegal: 0:57

Now you guys are in a part of the world that we all think of as paradise, but it's been anything but a paradise. Lately. You're in Lahaina and you had those awful fires. Talk about what that was like and let us know how you guys are doing now.

Ethan Shelton: 1:15

I'll start with. I didn't even really know there was going to be a big fire. I lived eight miles north towards Kapalua from the fire and at eight o'clock at night I looked out my door and I could see like looked like the glow from the volcano on the big island. Just glowing.

Ethan Shelton: 1:33

And then I went to work the next morning and I figured it must have been a big fire in Lahaina, just because it's a very dry time of the year and there are lots of fires brush fires from Lahaina to the tunnels to get out of that area.

Ethan Shelton: 1:48

So I just figured the police would come if anything happened. And they didn't. So I went to work the next morning and all I noticed is that electricity was out and I'm doing presentations in the dark, I sell vacation ownership, and then I started getting texts from around the world telling me oh my God, I didn't even know and I had to get all my information over the next few weeks because the electricity went out, there was no water, there was no internet, there was nothing. Everything was. I was getting from just Texas.

George Siegal: 2:22

And your house, though. Your house wasn't in the fire line though, so your house came out, okay.

Ethan Shelton: 2:27

Right, but five of my friends lost their houses and one of my good friends lost his life.

Ethan Shelton: 2:34

He ran into a burning building and a lady was screaming, pulled her out, saved her, ran back into the building, never came back out, so that was really sad. The power lines what happened was there was a 50, 50, 60 mile an hour winds and I've never seen that in Hawaii. But that was so dry, there was no lot of cloud in the sky and it was going right down to the ocean and it was very dry. Up in Lahaina. Those houses are very old 60 years old or more and so it was kind of like, looking back at it, 2020 hindsight you can see that someday, someday, there could be a big fire there. I mean, I didn't think about that, but you know, when the fire erupted and the flames got high, it increased the wind by you know, another 35 miles an hour, so they said it traveled at a mile a minute.

George Siegal: 3:30

Yeah, the video and the images are just just frightening about what happened. Ethan, what was your situation like with the fire?

Howie Hevern: 3:37

I didn't live there. I don't live in Lahaina, I live in Waikato but and my first initial experience with the fire was from Kula I got word that my friend was being ordered out of Kula. It wasn't in Lahaina, that was before anybody heard anything about it Before any fires. It started in Lahaina at that point and I actually called him and made a joke.

Howie Hevern: 4:00

I said what did your barbecue get out of hand? I had no idea how bad it was at that point and I didn't even know that everybody had ordered evacuation to be evacuated.

George Siegal: 4:09

Now, when I think about where you guys live, you know, and the hazards you might face, I think about volcanoes, I think about hurricanes, you think about tsunamis if there's an earthquake, but the thought of wildfire I've learned since then it's actually a very real threat. Did you guys consciously think about something like this on a regular basis, like other disasters?

Howie Hevern: 4:31

Yeah, absolutely, there's no doubt about it. Almost every single year, west Mali Mountains has fires. There's a brush fire that happens to some degree, some more severe than others. Some jump and even hit Ma'alaya. So, starting from Ma'alaya all the way up to past Kanapali, we have experienced fires in those dead areas, especially since they haven't been growing pineapples and sugar cane anymore.

George Siegal: 5:03

They've been growing in the tents. That's where a lot of people struggle with how tragic this was, in that it seems like it was a series of things gone wrong that just worked against an area, because I always look at how prepared are people. Do they understand the risks, do they have a plan if something bad happens? And all that seems like it kind of went out the window there.

Ethan Shelton: 5:26

It was. The perfect storm is what it was. They should have set out the tsunami warnings, but they're afraid that people would run out the mountain towards the fire. But they would have woken up and opened their door and seen the fire and they would have known what to do. At least had to get away from it. So that was one problem. Then the firemen were starting to win the fire, but then they turned the water off.

Howie Hevern: 5:52

The water was turned off.

Ethan Shelton: 5:54

The water was turned off so they couldn't even fight the fire and it went so quickly. There was embers they're going 75 miles an hour and they were landing in people's hair and they were running towards the water and it got so thick that they could hardly see. Some of the people made it to the seawall knowing they had to go into the ocean. And it was so thick they dove off the seawall but it was low tide so it was all rocks. They broke their backs and arms and then they burned it down. The lucky ones went out and they swam out way out. They said the waves in front of the harbor were on fire.

Howie Hevern: 6:32

That's how bad the flames were Because of all the soot that had built up as a layer, and then all the burning embers would rest on top of that soot and continued burning on top of the water. So waves were on fire. Yeah, people had to jump through that murk and burning murk to get into some water. So it was a horrible situation.

George Siegal: 6:55

It sounds horrible and all the images are horrible. I made a documentary film called the Last House Standing and it featured a house in Mexico Beach, florida, that truly was the last house standing. There's actually an image that comes out of your area of the house that was right on the water where supposedly they were concerned about termites, but they did things that mitigated the potential damage around the house and that one house survived. Do you know the house I'm talking about?

Howie Hevern: 7:23

I'm pretty sure it was young.

George Siegal: 7:26

And I hear those people have been incredibly gracious to everybody taking people in and helping people. What's it like to see one house standing amongst an entire area that's burned down?

Ethan Shelton: 7:37

It's strange.

Howie Hevern: 7:38

I saw a church.

Ethan Shelton: 7:39

That was not touched either. Houses burned all around it, but the church was still standing. It's fine.

George Siegal: 7:46

Any thoughts, other than religious implications, about why that is? I mean, is there? Did they do anything? Did they have brush near there, was it?

Ethan Shelton: 7:54

Well, they won't even let you go near the fires and people are just starting to get back to be able to go back to their land and they're sifting through the land like gold miners Looking for pieces of jewelry and stuff like that, and the land, they're saying, is very, very toxic, and so they have to clear the land. I guess right first.

Howie Hevern: 8:14

That's what they're saying.

Ethan Shelton: 8:16

So it's gonna be a long process. You know there's been a Problem was when the fire. The fire the telephone poles, you know. They burned and fell and the wires dropped from the poles so people couldn't drive in or out and they were stuck and they didn't know.

Howie Hevern: 8:34

The wires themselves were deactivated.

Ethan Shelton: 8:38

Yeah, so they were scared, so neither did the police.

Howie Hevern: 8:40

Police didn't know it either.

Ethan Shelton: 8:42

So they were stuck in their car and burned alive just because they were stuck in traffic and they should have ran to the water.

George Siegal: 8:50

The loss of life is so tragic in in what happened there and then I. I imagine that's impossible to get over because you can never bring those folks back. And now you're talking about trying to rebuild lives. Are they giving people an indication of how long it will be till they can clear their lot and possibly start to rebuild? Or people may be able to get their insurance Claims filed and handled? What do you, what are you hearing about all that?

Howie Hevern: 9:13

From. I've been talking to quite a few people. Their insurance claims are going really well, as far as if they had I mean if they had good insurance. The bigger companies state farm, all state so on and so forth. They those are. They'll get an initial payment up front. There's a lot of concern and of course they get what they call depreciation later, that's after they've already built. Problem that we're actually hearing from a lot of people and it's a suspicion of a landbake. Are you aware of what that is?

Howie Hevern: 9:44

No, I'm not and because when they Wait people out longer than they have the ability. I mean, just look, they Stalled development and construction and approvals and permitting and all that kind of stuff longer than the people's money Will last. So ultimately, a lot of people feel like this is sort of an eminent domain, land grab type of thing and the strategy is to landbake it. So is the land as toxic as everybody says? We don't know. Nobody knows here and everybody's suspicious about it. Nobody knows because it's just been the EPA that's been in there. No, no independent studies. Then there's been no, absolutely zero Media allowed in there.

Howie Hevern: 10:27

So none of the at least none of our local press has been out there to make any independent studies, any independent research at all. I've reached out to several professors in UH.

Howie Hevern: 10:40

They've they haven't returned my calls yet and I reached out to the law professors as well as some of the science department to see if we can get some soil samples over there and find out what it is, what is going on and if it is toxic, like they say it is, there's. There shouldn't have any problem letting independent scrutiny. Let it undergo independent scrutiny. Would you agree with that? But anyway, they, they don't, and everybody's suspicious of the government right now. So it talks. I don't know. I, I'm yeah go ahead. What did you say?

George Siegal: 11:15

I was gonna say I completely understand suspicion of the government and what you would wonder what interests are at play with something like that? So the whole area is just closed off? Is it fenced off? People can't get near it.

Ethan Shelton: 11:28

It's an awesome. The tourists when they drive by they can't actually go into line of town. But if you get close to the line of town they've fenced it all off so people can't see it. It looks like Ukraine, like bombs, like a, like an atomic bomb went off. Everything is gray and black. The all the wood is gone. You know, a lot of trees were burned and then also they had a problem with a lot of the houses had propane, so those were like each house boom, boom, boom, and then the transformers are on the telebubbles, they're exploding, so it's just like a war zone. I mean, it was the most her understanding you can think about.

Howie Hevern: 12:06

But remember you were talking about the house that didn't get burned.

Howie Hevern: 12:09

There's a lot of things about this fire that are, to say the least, anomalous. So there are things that were, that were burnt, and there was nothing, no tender, no kindling or anything around to show any ignition source they're. Also, when I got, when I looked at it myself and I looked up and I looked at the hillside, I see ignition in the middle of the field where there are no wires or anything like that. Where did that come from? Then fire suddenly go backwards, when the wind was going the opposite direction, see. So it's not just the house that didn't burn, it's the odd things that did burn, in a weird way that they did burn like burning aluminum and not burning asphalt, which is a lower temperature, you see where I'm going with all this.

George Siegal: 12:50

Yeah, I don't. I don't really know where to To take that. I know when there's a firestorm, when that fire comes over the hill and like it creates its own, you know, the wind increases, it creates its own Climate, it seems, when that, when a fire is blowing through there. So it seems like all bets are off, what, what? The scary part is how people weren't Alerted, how we rely on our officials in those times and you hope that there's somebody looking out for you. And we covered the Malibu fire, the Woolsey fire From two thousand eighteen in my film. People felt really let down. You know there were firefighters that we're told you couldn't fight a fire on this street, you had to go here, you had to go there. They were firemen that were there from different neighborhoods that didn't know the area. I mean, there were there. There's always something you can look back on and go. Why did they do this that way? But it really shows the frustration when there's a disaster, once your destiny is out of your own control.

Howie Hevern: 13:45

They have an evacuation or some sort of disaster plan, emergency plan there.

George Siegal: 13:50

Yes, they did, and people I don't know that they can make you leave, but they sure tell you to leave. We have that here in Florida when it's called a mandatory evacuation and that's when they're telling you you need to leave, but they can't physically make you leave and that's where a lot of people end up losing their life. You know, here it's from storm surge. Usually if you're right by the water and you know, they ask you to write your social security number on your arms so they can identify you because they can't come rescue you Under that scenario. So with fire, in a fire storm, they can't come get you. At that point they needed to tell you before the fire got there.

Howie Hevern: 14:25

Yeah, and that's a. I will say this I'm 100% sure that we had no evacuation plan, not especially nothing current after and then. I don't think that any of that should have happened. I don't think the police department, especially the police department, was equipped with managing that type of thing. I think people would have done much better on their own.

George Siegal: 14:47

And I don't.

Howie Hevern: 14:47

I'm not the kind of guy that sit there point fingers. But I do think it was a bad, bad choice for Herman Andaya to not fire off that alarm and they could have customized it because if you remember right when we had the, we had to customize several times when we had the bomb threat here. They were specific in the cell phone transmission what was happening. I mean, I forget exactly what it says, but bomb threat imminent, not a drill is that.

Howie Hevern: 15:11

And so you saw what it was, and they could have customized their taxes for the text as well as that. And people said from from early in the morning there was no self service, so I haven't done any good, but it was a bad. He knows is the bad call. I don't know. He doesn't want to admit it, but that was a bad call in his bar.

Howie Hevern: 15:27

They should have sounded the alarm, but to think that, somehow or another, that there was a, that the police department here I mean, they are their law enforcement officers and there's nothing in their job description whatsoever that has them planned for a disaster like this.

George Siegal: 15:42

So well, there's. I believe that in every community, the officials that that work for that municipality or whatever I think that's their job to have those plans. But what it shows us as citizens, no matter where we live, we should want to know that plan. You know there was Paradise, California. They found out in their fire in 2018. There was. There's really no way out. There was like one way out to get out of there. I'm here during the hurricane last year, hurricane Ian on Captiva Island. There's one way out. So if people need to get out and they wait till the last minute, they can't even safely evacuate. So what I think the lesson here is and there's nothing that that overcomes the tragedy of what happened and the damage and everything is that people need to be their own best advocate and have a plan and know what they would do.

Howie Hevern: 16:30

And after the fact we saw great examples of that. I mean, they really have a plan, but you know what? It took a long time for a female Red Cross and saw the organizations for say, to get themselves together. But you know what? The residents, the people who live here, even the people that were burnt out and didn't have a place to go, everybody rallied together to try to make everybody safe and fed and taken care of and comforted, and in a time that there was a lot of people who were there and in a time that there was no help, it was just us helping us. That was it.

Howie Hevern: 17:02

And I think that that, as a matter of fact, it speaks to the human character too, because when they did show up, it kind of it's almost like everybody just kind of let FEMA and Red Cross sort of take over until they realized they weren't doing the best job, they weren't doing as good a job as they were doing, and they took back over the hugs themselves again. But I really am proud of my brothers and sisters here in Maui. They pulled together and we took care of each other.

George Siegal: 17:33

Yeah, there are many times in life that you get tested where you know your humanity is tested. You know we've I talk about this a lot on the podcast. You know there's a lot of people where I live that choose not to have a generator. There's people in the Midwest that choose the middle of the country not to have a tornado shelter. So the question is, after the disaster that everybody was aware could happen, what is your obligation to protect your family versus opening your door and helping everybody? It's kind of different with what happened there, since it was such a widespread disaster and it seemed like it affected most of the people in that community.

Ethan Shelton: 18:10

The place I live. It's an apartment right across from the ocean and they had volunteered. Everybody walked around and started cutting the taller grass and getting rid of everything around the area that would be burning. And the other thing that they've done is, like every month, they have the siren that goes off with tsunami warning, but this time it was on text, so you know warning that this is just, you know, a test. So they had done that with the fire, which I think they're going to do from now on, if something like that happens again.

Ethan Shelton: 18:46

You're going to get a text on your phone.

Howie Hevern: 18:48

You're talking about the October force test?

Ethan Shelton: 18:50

Yes, yeah usually it's on the first, but they didn't want to perform.

Howie Hevern: 18:53

That was nationwide.

Ethan Shelton: 18:55

Oh, was yeah.

George Siegal: 18:56

Well then, it's only a matter you know. It also depends on how many people take it seriously. When you guys have a tsunami warning over there, do people take it seriously? Because I used to live in San Francisco and when I lived in LA, when there was a tsunami warning, the news station would send a crew down to the beach to get video. It's like nobody took it seriously. It's a lot more serious over where you are. When that goes, siren goes off.

Howie Hevern: 19:18

If you look at it, do people think it's really going to happen? They don't really think it's going to happen, but they go out and buy flashlights anyway. You get it. So no, they don't really think it's going to happen. I don't think it's.

Ethan Shelton: 19:32

I think that they look out, they go to the TV and find out how big it is and what it's. You know, I usually have a four or five hour warning, so we're pretty sure it's going to happen or not If you're watching a TV or radio.

George Siegal: 19:46

Now, when the disaster was occurring, you guys were the front page, you were the top story. It was wall to wall coverage of this tragic Event happening in Lahaina. Now it's passed and now you're dealing with the hell of it the people there. Do you feel the media has just gone on to the next tragedy?

Howie Hevern: 20:06

Well, yes, I do, but it isn't entirely their fault. I'm saying that because there's still a media blackout. The emergency proclamation, section 173-A, allows them from media to stop media transmissions.

Howie Hevern: 20:22

Electronic media transmissions suspension of the First Amendment. So there still is no media in and out of there. So you can't, you can't get a story Unless you're. You're kind of sneaking in and out of there and guys have done that, but they're really cracking down on it. Like, like Howard said, there's National Guard out there, there's the police department and there's some other security forces that I have never seen before in uniforms. I've never seen before. Somebody said that they're you, you and, but don't quote me on that, I don't know. So what are they doing here surrounding our town?

George Siegal: 20:58

Yeah, where did all the people? Where do all the people go? There's a lot of people that are displaced.

Howie Hevern: 21:02

That's a good question. A lot of people have left the island that could, that had the means, and well, especially if they had family members on other islands, and the ones that were wealthy enough to go to a while who have already done so. But there's still a lot of people here. They're being shuffled around different hotels and different vacancies and that causes the problem too, because they've now opened up to tourism, so they've people that were in hotels are being asked to move to other places and we don't know what's happening with them. Yet. I think some of them have gotten extended, but the hotels, I mean, you see, it's catch-22. We need the tourism here for the money, we need the Support, but at the same time people need a place to go, so there are still some people that are displaced.

Ethan Shelton: 21:49

Yeah, camping in their car.

Howie Hevern: 21:53

For the beach. There's not as many as I thought, but there's still a huge, a Huge amount of people that just don't have a place to go, and part of the reason is because when FEMA looks at it and a household, they see one household. But in Hawaii and I'm not sure you know this you look at one household, especially if there's, if it's been there, a couple of generations. There's probably gonna be a few families living in the same house and they don't. They're not covering a few families, they're only covering, like one family and I'm there might be four families in that same house. They're all related or might not be related.

Howie Hevern: 22:30

So they're not really getting the coverage that they need and the help that they need. In that sense and I don't there seems to be a lot of money that's come in here, but of course, as soon as it comes in, it immediately has to go back out to buy more supplies and things like that for the people that don't.

George Siegal: 22:48

Now, you, know the kind of stuff, the stories we hear about here, just you know, like, how did Oprah's house avoid burning down? How did some of the, the, the over wealthy people? Was it just not in that same area, because I don't know the geography of that area so well.

Howie Hevern: 23:03

That's a different area, although the one could argue that Hula could have possibly who is up up mountain up up country, mountains where the first fires, or some of the first fires I.

George Siegal: 23:16

Think a lot of one thing that I know most people don't think about. You think, even if you have sprinklers or you have a hose, when there's a fire, first of all, if they cut the water off, you have no shot. But when everybody's using their water at the same time, the water pressure goes down to almost nothing anyway.

Howie Hevern: 23:31

It was cut off. I there was a there's the story about it the guy that was in charge of it, and, believe me, he's one of the ones that's catching heat, not as much Herman Andaya, the emergency management guy, but he's catching a lot of heat for it too, because it would have been very easy for him to divert more water to the area.

Howie Hevern: 23:50

Which is normal in an emergency. It's quite normal, as a matter of fact, for them to divert waters where it's needed most and he didn't do it. And the song and dance story that he gave and I wish I had that clip right here, but I didn't keep it and I would share that with you, but it's just really the most pathetic story I've ever heard.

George Siegal: 24:09

I've seen that clip that is not gonna age. Well, where was he. When you look at that and you hear the story, it's like you. There's no excuse.

Howie Hevern: 24:18

That's bad, that's that's not gonna. Yeah like you said, that's not gonna look well. Looking backwards I.

George Siegal: 24:25

Feel well in a way.

Howie Hevern: 24:26

I don't know. I don't even understand why Herman and I really want to stick to his guns on that either, because I. That would have been the first thing. Oh god, I do regret it. I would have said that I didn't send it off because I was. I thought everybody would be as stupid as me. Looking back, maybe, maybe I should have sent it off. That might have been.

George Siegal: 24:44

Maybe liability, it's probably an insurance reason or something that Covering his own ass on something like that. So if you had to look back now and you got it gonna have a lot of time to do it what would you? What would you think would be done differently?

Ethan Shelton: 24:59

For sure a text on the phone that the people know immediately there's a fire.

Howie Hevern: 25:04

Well, I think, like you said, just to have a full-blown evacuation or a some sort of emergency plan Somewhere, that somehow or another, that people know exactly what to do to get out of that one lane, to get off that one road. You know so how another get the hell out of there.

Ethan Shelton: 25:19

Yeah, we didn't know what the plan is like tsunami there there's areas and say come to this area, so now this is tsunami. You know, this is tsunami truth. And you go up the mountain or so and they're marked and you can see them, but not so on a fire comes. You know it's like when you do and everybody panics and tries. There's only one way, two ways in and out of Lahina. One's through a tunnel and the other one just a really old windy road that's. Some people are scared to even drive that road stuff against cliffs, and so Lahina is also the west side of the island. So it's like a desert as far as you know the rainfall. You know it's all brown right now. You know the rich people live out in Hanna, open, win-free, that's all green jungle the way you think of Maui in your mind. But this side of the island is more like a desert until November, december, january. The rains come and then it turns all green over here.

George Siegal: 26:20

So after disasters on the mainland, we always second-guess, and so if you live in an area that gets wiped out by a flood or a hurricane, you go All right, is it worth rebuilding there? If we do, do we do it differently? So what's the assessment for a community like Lahina? Obviously, it wasn't built to survive the tragedy that that hit it. So how do you rebuild?

Ethan Shelton: 26:42

Well, there's been talk of they said even before the buyers are turning it into what you call it, they uh satellite.

Howie Hevern: 26:49

Well, the rumor is that they were. They the rumors have always been that it's supposed to be a smart city, satellite or smart satellite city. Uh then, when it tried to, then they have this group called Build Beyond Barriers that have been managing that.

Howie Hevern: 27:02

Lahina was never part of the conversation, at least not openly, because Lahina was already built you know it's a historic town and they have regulations about not being able to build there unless there's a natural disaster. How convenient, uh so, for them to build back. I personally believe that said, that, people that own homes right there should have the choice how they want to build back. That's our own personal property. That's not a decision. I think that should be long to the state, but the stuff that belongs to the state, obviously. I think everyone's going to build. That's back smarter. I hope that they build back with some of the stuff that's over the water, but rumor is that they're not going to do it. They're going to have setbacks and such, and that coast is going to be pristine without any buildings over it.

George Siegal: 27:51

But I don't know about you, but I like to have an oceanfront dining at Pemos.

Howie Hevern: 27:55

You know, sitting out there over the ocean and Lahina experience.

Ethan Shelton: 28:00

Lahina kind of reminds me of Carmel. You know the front street there and the shops, that real feeling that you get right on the ocean and it's cool. I mean I've lived here many, many years. There's a banion tree there that's over 100 years old and that caught fire. That's right on the oceans, probably one of the biggest banion trees in the world, but they say it started to come back.

Howie Hevern: 28:24

It's too fast to kill it. Fire is too fast to kill it.

George Siegal: 28:30

If you had to take a guess when you'll see Lahina coming back, what would you guys think?

Ethan Shelton: 28:37

At least four years.

Howie Hevern: 28:38

Yeah, they're talking four and a half five, maybe as much as six years. Now you can see the landbake thing I was talking about. How are homeowners going to be able to our property owners period going to be able to last four and five years, you know?

George Siegal: 28:53

And the people that worked there, the infrastructure of the community, the waiters, the waitresses, the laborers, all the people that relied on those businesses that were there to make a living. What do they do?

Howie Hevern: 29:07

And probably the answer is fold and go someplace else for those people. Now here's what the local people are saying. Now, the majority of the people that lived in the area of Lahina that got burnt they're either in law enforcement, fire department, and so many fire people lost. I think there's 19 fire men that lost their home Was it 19? 64 boats, but the rest of those people over there were construction people and they all believed that they could have things up and running in as little as 18 months to two years. So there's a difference of opinion about how fast it takes to rebuild something like that, and so that's why people think it's a landbake.

Ethan Shelton: 29:48

There's no rebuilding going on at all right now, until that land gets detoxified.

Howie Hevern: 29:52

They'll never be detoxified because they'll have to scoop it up and take it away If there's an, even if there's that level of toxicity to begin with, I don't even know. Like I said, there has been no independence, that is, it's all been FEMA, but. But they just sprayed this stuff called soil tack on it and it's a type of vinyl and I guess it's pretty dormant as long as there's no fire fire. But as soon as that catches fire, that becomes super, super toxic. And let's not, like you know, they just they're spraying that. The governor just gave the OK to put that on there. And there's other alternatives enzyme based soil Adhesives, you know what I mean, that they could have been using, but they chose to use this and I don't know why it bothers me so much that it's a British based company, but it's totally not relevant, but I don't think that spraying vinyl on the ground in line is an ecologically sound decision.

George Siegal: 30:49

No, you would love to have been at the meeting where that was deemed a good idea. And that's the same with a lot of things you know after a disaster like this is so much second guessing that that everybody can do and I think people don't really calculate that cost in the when they understand where they live. It's OK, my insurance may pay for my house, but there's so many other things beyond your control. What they found out in Malibu People couldn't rebuild the way they wanted to because of permit regulations, and you had to. You could only rebuild your house in the exact same footprint that was there. You had to apply for a whole new building permit. I mean, it's not easy to rebuild.

Howie Hevern: 31:25

Now, and I was more curious about the paradise, the paradise fires.

Howie Hevern: 31:35

I heard so much about paradise fires that they weren't allowed to put fires out, because now the new laws that you got to let it burn naturally, right, but there are certain areas that once they cross that they've designated as that, as that natural wild area, wild forest or wildlife area, and then, once you get beyond that, then you can start putting it out, but by then it's out of control. So I think a lot of these fires not the ones here in Maui, that was different, but the fires that are happening around the globe they're under the same principle, they should. If they had earlier action and none of these, especially paradise probably wouldn't have been as big and as intense as it was, if that's the true policy there.

George Siegal: 32:19

Well, what's always interesting to look at is the areas that we choose to live as people. How we want to live there is counterintuitive to how you should probably safely live there. So if we live in the woods and you live in a cabin, a wood cabin in the woods with trees all around your house, if you were to talk to a fire expert, that's the exact opposite of what you should do. If you live by the beach, on a slab, on grade house, near the water, you're just begging to have a storm surge wash you out. I mean, I don't think we make good decisions in this case. I'm not second guessing what anybody did, but it makes you just wonder, on a rebuild, what you should think about and how you should do things differently.

Howie Hevern: 32:56

I, I agree, and I think there's. It comes down to the materials and If it, if the lines had anything to do with it, that's an easy fix. But I gotta tell you something concerning those lines. Those lines were not dug in there very very well. There wasn't that long ago. I was driving down the street that was on the other side of the line.

George Siegal: 33:15

It was up the hills like a service road in.

Howie Hevern: 33:17

Connolly and I lost control of this truck. It was a big truck, big Dodge diesel and I hit a light pole and our telephone line or whatever and it came up rooted. But you know it was only. It was only in the ground about that deep. It really came up super easy. The damage on the truck was significant. But you know there was no, you know I Was in no danger. But I was surprised out easily that pole came up rooted. So they, right after that they came and fixed every one of those poles and put them in there deeper. That was there right after I hit that. So why they didn't continue that process, that practice and maybe Build the better infrastructure while they had the chance? Maybe now that they have to do it?

George Siegal: 34:06

I mean heck.

Howie Hevern: 34:07

They've been given 95 million dollars to rebuild at least the electrical infrastructure there, so there's no excuses at this point.

Ethan Shelton: 34:14

I Will give a shout out to FEMA and world central kitchen. They had. We had lots of water, we had lots of food available, plenty, and the world central kitchen, the guy that owns that, these friends with the late great to Anthony Bodane, you know the chef, and so they were good friends and so the food was really surprising good. And then they had concerts at the beach park across from my house and everybody. They had free massages and they had the medical. I mean it was amazing how everybody came together. Lots of hugs in the park and people were crying is it still?

Ethan Shelton: 34:55

that way though it's it's it's slowing down now, it's just people, but there's still. All the food and stuff is still there. Monday, wednesday, friday at one spot, thursday, friday another, and so that regard, and also they were running around gas cans. People ran on the gas and they were people lined up the street with no gas. I'm a gas truck came by and filled all their gas cans so they get to the other side the gas. So that part I thought was really good, how people stuck together and how they help. So that part is really nice.

George Siegal: 35:30

Yeah, I mean it's nice if you can pull something good out of something bad. But just, you know, when you get past the, it's hard to get past the loss of life and how many years it's gonna take for people to Get their lives back back together there. Ethan Howie, thank you guys so much for for sharing your story of what's going on there. Ethan, I think you and I could probably sit and talk for hours just about conspiracies on things.

Ethan Shelton: 35:51

Oh yeah, go get it started.

Howie Hevern: 35:54

I'm so deep in the rabbit hole, george, you wouldn't know. Well, you might, maybe would know.

George Siegal: 35:58

I have a suspicion we'll start with COVID vaccines and we'll work our way down. You just speaking my language.

Howie Hevern: 36:07

Thanks George.

George Siegal: 36:08

All right, thanks, guys. Thank you for joining me today. If you take anything from this episode, I hope you'll make sure you have a disaster plan in place for you and your family. If you have a story of disaster you've experienced or a homeowner experience that you've had, good or bad, there's a contact form in the show notes. Fill it out. You might be a guest on an upcoming episode. If you enjoyed what you were listening to today, please become a regular subscriber so you don't miss an episode. A new one comes out every Tuesday morning. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.