How You Package is the Real Cost of Shipping

January 3, 2023
66. How You Package is the Real Cost of Shipping

The cost of shipping keeps going up, but what about the price we all pay when the packaging ends up in a landfill?  Saloni Doshi has a solution, her company EcoEnclose is creating products that not only help your merchandise arrive in one piece but are made with recycled materials.

Here are some important moments Saloni from the podcast: 

At 2:31 What is the problem you have identified, and what are you doing to make it better?

At 6:36 What do you say to someone who doesn’t think they can make a difference?

At 14:20  So why should everyone be using eco-friendly shipping packaging?  

Here are some ways to follow Saloni and Ecoenclose:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ecoenclose 

Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ecoenclose

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ecoenclose/ 

Important information from Homeowners Be Aware:

Here are ways you can follow us on-line:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/homeownersbeaware/

Website: https://homeownersbeaware.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-siegal/

If you'd like to reach me for any reason, here's the link to my contact form:

https://homeownersbeaware.com/contact

Here's the link to the trailer for the documentary film I'm making: Built to Last: Buyer Beware.

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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

George Siegal: 0:00

Every time you send a package to someone, the first thought is you hope it gets there. And if it does, that it gets there in one piece, but there's more we all need to think about with this process. Once your package makes it, what happens with the actual packaging? Well, it likely ends up in a landfill somewhere. My guest today has a solution for this. Saloni Doshi is the CEO and chief sustainability geek of Ecoenclose. She was kind enough to send me some of their envelopes to try out that I'm now using for shipping tell Us How to Make It Better T-shirts. Her company has developed sustainable packaging for e-commerce brands. They work with 30,000 companies every year ranging from a single person business like yours truly, to Fortune 500 brands. I'm George Siegal, and this is the Tell Us How to Make It Better podcast. Every week we introduce you to people who are working on real world problems and providing actual solutions. Tell Us How to Make. It Better is partnering with The Readiness Lab, the home for podcasts webinars and training in the field of emergency and disaster services. Saloni thank you so much for coming on today.

Saloni Doshi: 1:08

Glad to be here. Thanks for having.

George Siegal: 1:10

Now, I was reading about you and I was seeing that your other career endeavors have a similar theme, which balance, social justice, environmental progress. You seem to be wanting to do a lot of good. Where did this come from in your life?

Saloni Doshi: 1:23

Yeah, I think, uh, I think probably first and foremost is probably just like as a daughter of immigrants, like it means that I had the privilege of going to India a lot when I was young. Um, and so, you know, very young, I was exposed to like poverty. That is very unlike what we would ever have been able to be experienced in the U.S. And. Sort of like, understand the nuances of that. And so that's there. And then I think I did a project in India that was like trying to build schools, um, outside of uni, like build schools for slums outside of universities that have really stuck with me forever. Um, and then I also had this like survival stint where I did the three week survival stint in the woods when I was in high school. Um, and anybody who's listening to this who's Indian knows that being outdoorsy is not part of the Indian way. But I found my calling on that trip. I was like, oh my God, I love nature. I love not having to deal with things. And I just, I think I went then into my higher education with like a passion for both of those things. Like how do we alleviate poverty, how do we think about that? And then also like an obsession, I think with nature and minimalistic sort of ways of living.

George Siegal: 2:25

All right, so what is the problem that you have identified and what are you doing to make it better?

Saloni Doshi: 2:31

Yeah, the problem is packaging, and I think we can all, you know, anybody who's online shopping or just buying things from the store knows that, you know, in order to make this global, uh, supply chain work, there needs to be a lot of packaging. We throw, you know, about, depending on who you are, a quarter to about half of your garbage is filled with packaging, and that's a problem for a variety of reasons. To me, it's a big problem because most of that packaging is made with virgin materials that were literally just produced to make something one time. And then they were thrown out where all of those, the potential in those resources basically waste away at a landfill. And so we basically like harvested a bunch of natural things, used a bunch of resources to make it and then throw it away where it wastes away forever. Um, and to me that just like is, is is defies common sense more than anything else. It's also, um, an important, um, contributor, I would say, to many of the ecological challenges that our planet faces today. So I'm really focused at Ecoenclose of like, how do we change that by creating a future where all packaging is made from packaging and packaging doesn't get thrown away, but it, it literally is reborn into packaging in its next life.

George Siegal: 3:36

Okay, so it seems like it's one thing to have an idea like that, and then the, then the tough part is coming up with the material that will actually accomplish what your goal is, and then the next step beyond that is actually getting people to use it.

Saloni Doshi: 3:48

Yeah, you got it. No, you've done this before, I guess. Um, you know, it's funny, the materials aren't as sexy as I think people want them to be. People always think there's some silver bullet material that's gonna fix packaging for us. Um, but for us it's really about, um, how do you incorporate a maximum level of recycled content into packaging? And now that feels commonplace. But when we started doing this almost like eight years ago, it wasn't. So every mailer, poly mailer out there was made with virgin plastic. And we were like, okay, let's try to get a bunch of recycled plastic into these and the converters, the excruders, like nobody wanted anything to do with it. Um, but we pushed and pushed and had a, like a cadre of like very passionate businesses behind us that were like, yeah, we'll buy that if you can make it. Um, and so, you know, after a couple years of testing, we were able to get to a hundred percent recycled poly mailer. And so that sort of, these are like, what we find is like there's little incremental steps towards the ultimate vision. If our ultimate vision is to make packaging outta packaging, you've gotta be like, okay, the first step is getting a hundred percent recycled paper, or increasing the amount of recycled plastic, or putting wheat straw fiber, which is agricultural waste into paper and celebrating when you even just like make a small win in that direction.

George Siegal: 5:00

So when you, when I'm on your website and I see all these different packages on there, is do people buy them directly from you or do you sell 'em to places like, um, you know, office Depot and all those different stores?

Saloni Doshi: 5:12

Yeah, people would buy them by and large is a couple places you can buy 'em, but really it's about getting it from our website and we largely serve e-commerce brands, right? So if you're. Patagonia, let's say, and you've put so much thought into like the ethics and sustainability of how you make your jacket. You wanna make sure you package that jacket in ways that lives up to those values. And so that business would come to us and say, okay, I need a mailer. I need shipping labels. I need tape, and I don't wanna just do it with standardized product. I wanna do it with innovative packaging. And so that's, that's where we.

George Siegal: 5:42

Are they a client?

Saloni Doshi: 5:43

They are, yeah., they're, yeah. We work with, I would say we work with, um, we'll, we'll probably work with 30,000 brands this year. 28,000 of those brands are like small mom and pop shops like Etsy, right. People are running their, like Etsy jewelry businesses and ship out 10, 20 orders a month. They can place an order online and we'll ship them 50 mailers. Or you're a large brand like a Prada, Patagonia. Hanky Pinky, a crox or somebody like that. And then you'd come to us and say, we need a more custom enterprise level solution. And we'll work with them on that as well. But across the board, they all get the same level of attention to sustainability.

George Siegal: 6:17

Now, part of the challenge, I, I would see, think with a business like that is maybe from a smaller business perspective, is I might be sitting going, how can I make a difference? You know, the, the pa, the few packages I'm gonna mail out who cares. What difference is it gonna make? What would you say to somebody that was that cynical?

Saloni Doshi: 6:35

I'm gonna say to you first that we are so, I'm so proud of our community of customers that we serve cuz we really almost like they have the opposite impact, which is like, uh, if I'm gonna run a business, I wanna be net positive. Like I don't wanna be sort of living up to the worst capitalist ideal. So we have so many customers that are like, they believe so strongly in the smallest impact that they can make. That said, if somebody did come to me with that, and that does happen, I really talk about the impact of a communal, like a communal investment in this. So the reason I go back to 10 years ago, like the reason we were able to get to a hundred percent recycled poly mailer, when the converters were like, I don't wanna work with P C R content or post-consumer waste in my plastic. The reason we were able to get that is cuz I said, Hey, we've got 10,000 brands behind us that are willing to buy this if you test it. And so a lot of it is like, how do you build the buying power that convinces the reclaimers, the remanufacturer, the converters to say, yes, I'm willing to work with material that has been untested. So I always say like, if you p become part of, we call it the eco ally community, if you become part of our community, even your smallest little buying power helps to make us stronger as we're pursuing all these innovations.

George Siegal: 7:43

Is it more expensive? So if we're comparing apples to apples here, if I buy something that is damaging to the environment versus buying an eco-friendly package. How much more am I looking to spend on that?

Saloni Doshi: 7:54

Yeah, great question. Uh, by and large it is, if it wasn't, it would be the, the most commonplace thing, right? Because it is true that people would buy the cheapest stuff. Um, these days, again, 10 years ago is probably 20% more expensive, and now it's zero to 5% more expensive to get a hundred percent recycled poly mailer. On the paper side, it's really interesting because recycled paper, the markets fluctuate dramatically over the course of covid. The commodity pricing for recycled paper skyrocketed. And so anybody who was like super committed to recycled paper did see a slightly higher increase in their pricing. All prices skyrocketed, right?. But anybody who was focused on recycled paper did see an increase. But then it levels out when those commodity spikes go away. So I would say you can buy from us and spend like zero to 15% more. But we've also had people come to us and be like, oh my God, you're cheaper than the other option. So things are evening out in a playing field that 10 years ago, it was like no matter what, sustainable alternatives were more expensive.

George Siegal: 8:52

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Saloni Doshi: 9:26

Um, yeah. So let's say we come up with a new blended material. We have like very official testing. So let's say we come up with a new, um, new paper mailer. We have like an El Endorf tear tester. and a mullen burst tester. And it's like literally a machine where you put the paper in there and a bubble pops on it and it says how much P P s I, like how much pressure can this paper withstand before it bursts. A tear tester is similar, like what kind of tear force can come before the paper actually tears. Um, and so those are very official tests. I will tell you that nothing is better than just putting something in the mail and seeing how it shows up. So it's, I actually really, my parents live in in New Jersey, and so we probably send them like 10 to 20 packages a week to test. So like we're we, we just launch, launched a reusable mailer and there's literally 10 reusable mailers that are going back and forth between my parents' place and ours, because any testing I do couldn't quite live up to the real hands of USPS and UPS Omnis packaging. And so we take pictures, we see where the tears are, and we understand, okay, after X amount of cycles, here's the sort of level of damage that it, that it's incurred. So it's a combination of technical and real life.

George Siegal: 10:35

Yeah. I don't think anybody can beat up a package like those guys can. Exactly, exactly. Collectively, all of 'em. I was in a business where, um, years ago we were trying to ship these decorative fireplaces and everyone we shipped was broken. Yeah. In transit. So it was very frustrating. So I I can, I could feel the pain That's, you're just about.

Saloni Doshi: 10:54

That's not something I'd wanna ship. That's really impressive.

George Siegal: 10:56

Yeah. You design a package for, for that and you've got a customer in me for life. Now, does it matter when I'm throwing your package out, which pale I throw it in? If I throw it in the green recycle pail or the blue garbage pail?

Saloni Doshi: 11:07

Yeah, great question. We want every single one of ours to end up recycled. Um, and so all of our paper-based stuff can be sort of put in your curbside recycle where we are, it's blue, some people have it where it's green. Um, we also have these, the, anything that's poly that we sell has to be thin film recycled. And the reason for that is because a plastic bag, if it went through the sorting process of a recycler, it would get, it would get caught into the gears, like huge machines that'll get caught in the gears, so those sorting places can't take flimsy materials. So if you go to your local store or you can, you know, anybody can send it back to us. We have a takeback program for our polyfilm. Um, but our goal, like, our, like long term is like if we wanna make packaging out of packaging, that's only possible if all packaging gets recycled. So we can get all of that raw materials and turn it back into packaging. So it's a really important part of our story.

George Siegal: 11:56

Yeah, I think those packing peanuts are gonna be around long after the world ends.

Saloni Doshi: 11:59

Yeah. They're a disaster.

George Siegal: 12:01

Yeah, they, they, they, they really are. Now with, um, with the different packages and stuff, you make it, it seems like this is such a no-brainer idea. I mean, a lot of times I can hear somebody suggest something and I go, nah, I can see what the pushback is on that. Why would anybody not wanna do this? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Saloni Doshi: 12:19

Yeah, me too. If you figure it out, , um, yeah, but

George Siegal: 12:22

it's your business so it's, we're looking at it differently.

Saloni Doshi: 12:24

Yeah. So I think a couple things. One is there's a perception and it's real. So what I made a comment about cost before, which I will clarify. I think in the world of packaging and frankly with the world of anything, if you wanna shop for the lowest cost option, you can possibly find, you will find significantly cheaper options in eco enclose. But if you're comparing eco and clothes with, say, Uline, which is like one of the most popular sources for packaging out there, we're basically neck and neck pricing with Uline. But if you're like, I need a dirt cheap package, you're gonna go find something on Alibaba that's really cheap made in China. And so I think some people are just like, I need the cheapest thing possible. This is where I wanna cut costs. There are some people that have some skepticism I would say about just any sustainability investment. And they're like, this is just not where I wanna spend my time. There are some people that think it's lower quality, um, and with paper sometimes you actually do have, um, you have shorter fibers when you recycle paper. So you start to get a slightly lower quality. But we've done all this testing so we can help you pick the right blend and the right mailer or box for your needs. And I'd say the last thing is that the industry lobbying groups and marketers have done a marvelous job convincing people that virgin material is just fine. So we are fighting up against that a lot, and we do a lot of research and test or research and analysis. We work with third parties to help dispel some of those myths.

George Siegal: 13:43

Yeah, I mean I, I, I do love the idea of what you're doing. I, I would never have a guest on that was in, that was mailing out plastic straw or those paper straws. Yes. Yes. Because those things are the worst. And I don't care. Nothing ruins a drink like a paper straw no matter what good it's doing.

Saloni Doshi: 13:57

You might as well just not use a straw.

George Siegal: 13:59

Exactly. But we're, when you're talking about packages, and I think of the amount of boxes and packages that come to our house a week, and it's like, this is an area where everybody could really make a difference, isn't it?

Saloni Doshi: 14:10

It's, it's so easy. It would be so easy to

George Siegal: 14:12

do. So what do we have to tell 'em? What do what's, what's your say? Gimme your elevator pitch. Tell me why I should, I'll say a couple things. Get on your website.

Saloni Doshi: 14:19

If you're a brand, it's like, this is, this is you, you're, you're able to make a difference so easily with your package, right? Every, all your customers are probably ask looking for a more conscious, more sustainable actions from the brands that they support. Switching your packaging from Virgin, potentially unrecyclable packaging to a hundred percent recycled recyclable packaging is an easy no-brainer, and I'll say our eco en closed team makes it so easy to do it. You call us and we handhold you through every single part of the process, and I think, like, we will figure out exactly what you need and we'll make sure that that order and that package is packaging is, is a success. As a consumer when you're shopping with brands, I would say whether you're shopping in a brick and mortar store or online shopping, you know, look for brands that have made a commitment to this because those actions matter, right? The vote with your dollar stuff, it starts to matter. It starts to move the needle. Um, and then obviously like, think about how you dispose of your packaging and recycle everything you possibly can and trust that it works. There's been some myths recently that recycling is broken. I am on the board of our, our local recycler. I visit our merf all the time, our local sorting facility all the time. Like this stuff gets recycled and it gets sold, and I know for a fact that the reason that I'm having a hard time getting a hundred percent recycled paper sometimes is because not enough people are recycling their paper. So please, please, please, as a consumer, like do your part and recycle. So those are, I think, the couple pitches that I would give to any brand or consumer listening out there.

George Siegal: 15:45

Now what would be a good package for these amazing t-shirts? These, uh, make it better podcast t-shirts make, yeah, what would I wanna ship Something like that in?

Saloni Doshi: 15:52

So you've got two choices, I would say. You've got a, a paper mailer. We've got this beautiful paper apparel mailer that's a hundred percent recycled curbside recyclable premium experience. People love it. We can print it with algae ink, which is really cool. Um, so that would be like your, if you wanted a more premium delivery experience, um, alternatively you could do like a six by nine or seven by 11 poly mailer, which is a hundred percent recycled. We can also print it with algae ink, and I don't think you get returns with, the cool thing about our poly mailer is that it has a dual strip for. Apparel companies that get a lot of returns so people can send back their returns in it as well. The poly mailer is a cheaper option. It's lower carbon footprint. The paper, um, option is a little more expensive and it's more circular because it's easier for your customers to recycle.

George Siegal: 16:35

You see, I would think the other challenge you have is, I've been thinking about this now. It's like, okay, if I sell one of these t-shirts. I know the post office is not negotiating on my rate. I'm gonna have to pay, and that now has gone up. I think it's like five or six bucks just to mail a stupid t-shirt. It's terrible through the post office, you know, I could slap it on a donkey and send it, and it would probably get there faster and in, in, in better condition. But so, so I have that cost. So then I think, well, the way I'm gonna save is on the package. But I guess you have to get beyond that thinking cuz that really.

Saloni Doshi: 17:02

Well you gotta pay for Oh, you're saying like, I might as well just use you U S P S as free packaging.

George Siegal: 17:07

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, I know that's not gonna be good. That's, that's not gonna meet the standards you're talking about.

Saloni Doshi: 17:12

Yeah, it's not, it's they're, they're very frustrating. I just wish they would make a commitment to recycled content cuz I would love u if U S P S did it, it would really move the needle. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the brands we serve, Are, you know, scaled at a level where they can't sort of use U S P S for u b s free options anymore. For the smaller companies, particularly the, those folks on Etsy like it, that's the conversation and we just say like, are you willing to make this, um, leap or not? The poly mailer is just really not that expensive. It's like, you know, 10 to 25 cents depending on which size you need. So like you're not looking at a tremendous cost burden in order to, you know, ship something in a way that like meets your values a little bit more.

George Siegal: 17:53

Absolutely. I would think you would get some marketing bang from that and saying, and we only ship it sustainably. I mean it be consistent with your arguments.

Saloni Doshi: 18:00

And people. People who have the brand, right, they're shouting that all over their social media, they're putting it on their site. They might be branding their poly mailers, like we can print custom print on the poly mailers to showcase that message. What a much better customer experience that's personalized than sending out a USPS package.

George Siegal: 18:14

Well, heck, you convinced me. I'm gonna buy some packages too.

Saloni Doshi: 18:17

I'll send you, I'll send you a bundle.

George Siegal: 18:18

When these start flying off the shelves, these t-shirts, they'll, they'll then, I'll, I'll actually feel like I'm doing some good because in, you know, I talk about building better homes and doing things that are sustainable. I should probably be consistent with my sustainability message, um, throughout the entire, uh, process.

Saloni Doshi: 18:33

Send me your address. I'm sending you a bundle and you can see if you like them.

George Siegal: 18:36

Well, that's that. Hey, I wasn't expecting that, but, uh, I'm not the kind of person that would ever say no. So let me ask you this now, a, as such a creative person who, who has been in so many different things where you're, you're really trying to do some good, what advice would you give people who wanna do something similar, not creating packages, but just have a, an idea that they think could make a difference. What would you tell 'em to get 'em going?

Saloni Doshi: 18:58

Oh God. Like the most mundane advice, which is like, just do it. You know? I think, okay, so it's, I'll say per, on a personal side, I start, I, my husband and I sort of like got into Ecoenclose after we had two kids, or after I had one kid and was pregnant almost about to have the second, and then had the third kid like four years ago. Our, the risk that we sort of undertook to make this, our reality was tremendous. And I wish I could go back to my 20 or 30 year, like younger, 30 year old self and be like, just do it. Like do it when you have a lot less restriction in your life. Um, and so, and now that I'm in a place where I like, I feel like risk is harder to take on, I'm also finding like, It's not, it's okay. Like I can handle this level of risk again. So I wish I could go back and tell my former self like, oh, you had so many ideas, you were so passionate. Like why did you take a couple safe paths back then when you had ideas that you could have made good on? And how much further along in life I would be in the path that was like much closer to my destiny. So a little bit of a, just do it. Um, and then, you know, I think a little, like a little bit of failure. Like we fail all the time, right? Every, like, every other product we release is a failure and you know, I'll, you know, I'll hire every other person I hire isn't a great fit. Like there's just a lot of like running a business is day-to-day failure, basically. And I have like really become over the last seven years, a person who, seven years ago I hated that. I was like against my immigrant perfectionist mentalities. And today it's like I, I have really become somebody who like wakes up. I'm like, okay, what are we gonna mess up today? Because that's like the fun of life. So to get into the zone of like, you don't have to have it all figured out, just do it and embrace it every time. Like something doesn't work out cuz you're just gonna do it n better the next.

George Siegal: 20:39

That's great advice and I have to compliment you on the, your background, uh, that's very eco-friendly cuz there's nothing you have to take off that and throw away.

Saloni Doshi: 20:46

There's nothing on Exactly, exactly.

George Siegal: 20:48

It's perfect. But the message was so good that it didn't matter what the background was. Exactly.. All right. So how do people follow you? Uh, what's your website? Social media? What's the best way for people to reach out to you?

Saloni Doshi: 20:59

Yeah, check us out. Eco enclose.com is our website. Check us out. We got a ton of products, of course, but also a ton of information for any brand or consumer out there looking to learn about the space. Um, follow us on Instagram or TikTok Eco enclose and then email me anytime Saloni, S A L O N I@ecoenclose.com. Um, I love hearing from folks. I love hard questions. I love people who are just like curious to learn more about how to navigate the space. I love supporting folks in their career.

George Siegal: 21:25

All right. Well, hey, Saloni, continued success with, uh, with the products. I mean, like I say, you, you convinced me and, uh, I appreciate your time today. Thanks for coming on.

Saloni Doshi: 21:34

Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun.

George Siegal: 21:36

Thank you for listening to this week's podcast. If you wanna get more information about Saloni or find her website, it's all in the show notes. And if you have any ideas for future podcasts or there's something you liked or didn't like about what you were listening to. There's a contact form right there in the show notes as well. Uh, fill that out. Let me know your thoughts, and if you have a great guest, I I would love to learn about them and possibly have 'em on a future episode. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.